Anti-spreader rounds?

[Religious Shooter]

Is there such a thing as an anti-spreader shotgun round? That is a round that holds the pattern tighter than normal? (Except of course a slug )

Also, all other things equal, does increased velocity mean: 1) a tighter pattern, 2) a bigger pattern or 3) does not make a difference?

I was thinking about a stage at the 3G nationals that had steel and clay. I saw some shooters having problems with one or two of the steel targets and I decided to constrict the gun a bit (from cylinder to IM).

This was the last day and I was out of spreader rounds. So I had to use my normal shells for the entire stage. The problem steel went down but come time to engage the clays and the non-problem steel the tighter IM pattern gave me problems. I have a feeling if I had stuck with the cylinder choke, the bigger pattern would have broken the clays easier and took down the other steel with the sloppy sight-pictures and alignment that I had used.

So I was thinking maybe I could have stayed with the cylinder choke and used different rounds on the the two problem steel.

With that strategy I could have used a higher DRAM and/or bigger payload shells. But of course you pay with increased recoil with those types of rounds.

But if there were such things as anti-spreader rounds (at the normal wussy DRAM weights of 2.75 and 3) you would be able to deliver a relatively bigger payload to the steel (due to the shell's pattern) and maintain the same recoil as your normal rounds.

Any other round or choke selection strategies I could have used on this type of stage?

[mike.45]

In shooting a stage naturally you choose a shell that will cope with everything you will face in the COF. Carrying different loads for different targets I would imagine could easily confuse in the heat of the moment and the best construed plan go to rat **** in the blink of an eye.

The recoil isnt that different from a 1 oz No. 7 and 1 1/8 oz No5 and its unlikely you would notice once the buzzer sounds. In your senario I would simply shoot the whole COF using a 1 1/8 oz no 5 or 6 Game load knowing it will take the heavy steel and simply aim (god forbid !!) on the clays.

Likewise I would choose a choke that could cope with the hardest target, and if that meant a IM for long range steel then again I would simply make sure I aimed and slowed down slightly on the clays etc. Put in a few tight penalty plates and the IM choke comes into its own.

Hope this helps

[IPSCDRL]

Also, all other things equal, does increased velocity mean: 1) a tighter pattern, 2) a bigger pattern or 3) does not make a difference?

All other things equal, a higher velocity will deform the shot more and cause a slightly larger pattern.

[uscbigdawg]

RS,

Remember when Cooley showed us the Hornady TAP buckshot. The wad had no pedals and as such, the shot density was maintained for a pretty good distance.

I'd say that's what you're looking for and it may necessitate loading your own rounds (heck, nothing wrong with another loader!).

Rich

[davidwiz]

Rich,

Were do you get the Hornady TAP buckshot from? I don't see any of their TAP ammo listed on their website anymore. Do you have to go through a Hornady LE dealer?

[double down]

Try spending more time shooting those targets to bring up your ability or confidence in that tighter choke.

[uscbigdawg]

Just direct to Hornady.

A good rule of thumb on a shotgun stage is to choke down for the longest piece of steel. Then, you just run your normal loads. That's one theory. Another is to have assorted types of ammunition, and then run with that.

Personally, I generally do the former and in most cases IC will do the trick for a stage (even if the steel is way out there). If it's "too" far, then I would probably have a Tec-Loader w/ #4's or larger buckshot, and knock it down with that.

My all purpose load is Remington STS/Federal Wally-world 3 dram, 1-1/8 oz. of #6 or #7-1/2's. That'll get 'er done!

Rich

[sargenv]

Is there such a thing as an anti-spreader shotgun round? That is a round that holds the pattern tighter than normal? (Except of course a slug  )

Yes there is.. and Hunters have been using these tricks for years. The best thing to do is to switch from those cheapie shotgun loads everyone uses and instead start loading hunting wads. Wads that you can choose how little or how much spread you want. Generally, that means that you have to do more work. When I load steel shot, I have to custom slit the wads that I use for my own steel loads. But then it also gives me good patterns and range to about 55 yards utilizing an inferior product (steel shot).

They make these specialty wads for lead as well. You might want to take a look at Ballistic Products and the wads they have available for hunting loads. I haven't had a real need yet for anything too far, but generally I keep a box of Lead #4's handy for anything really far away. If I know in advance the longer ranges we might be expected to shoot, I'd make up a box or two of the hunting loads utilizing the maximum shot size. I have some component #0 buck and 20 pounds of #2 lead shot in addition to the standards.. 9, 7.5, 6, and 4's.

I have recently been thinking of aquiring some #7's as well. *shrug* probably overanalyzing..

Vince

[Religious Shooter]

Cool, that hunting reference turned up this wad:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi_homep...urkeyranger.htm

So I guess I need to look for a Turkey load that is 2 3/4 and maybe 3-3.25 DRAM. Or reload using these wads.

[Religious Shooter]

Try spending more time shooting those targets to bring up your ability or confidence in that tighter choke.

I could go that route.

But I'm trying to game it a bit. And the more I think about it, I don't think it was the best idea to choke the gun based on the hardest target to knock down (which I did). It's a matter of #'s.

The Stage

Looking back on the stage I think I could have gotten away with a cylinder choke even on the "problem" steel. The back TS targets were the "problem" steel.

For most people, getting a "good"/IM sight picture is slower than getting a "sloppy"/cylinder one. So say for me the difference between the two types is .075 second. I can knock a target .075 second faster at X yards if I use a cylinder vs. an IM, simply because I don't have to dress up the sight picture due to the wider pattern. I believe no matter how much you practice, you will always be slower with a narrower pattern than with a wider one. Just the degree of the difference is lessened with practice.

So anyways I though two of the steel were problems.

If I had my head screwed on and realized I needed to use a good/IM type sight picture, I would have been (potentially) right of the bat .075 seconds x 18 targets = 1.35 seconds slower because I have to use a good/IM sight picture.

But if I had had long range shells with the same recoil, I could just run it with a sloppy/cylinder sight picture throughout the stage and potentially saved myself 1.35 seconds.

In reality it was much, much worse . I had four misses that I had to make-up that I attribute to the use of the IM choke --- I had no misses or make-up shots when I used a cylinder choke on the stage before and after this one.

[BPiatt]

You get what you pay for, when it comes to shotgun ammo.

Top of line target ammo cost a lot more than Walmart game loads. The reason is mostly due to the shot charge used.

The cheap ammo has cheap shot. Not perfectly round, little dimples on it, soft lead that will deform upon firing.

Top of the line target ammo or hunting ammo has

Extra Hard shot that will deform less upon firing... thus keeping a tighter pattern.

There is even nickle plated shot, that resists deformation during firing also.

I wouldn't worry too much about it... choke to what you think you'll need and run whatever ammo you have.

If the match allows, I run a tactical #4 buck at the far targets.

Estate Cartridge makes a 3 dram 22 pellet (1 1/8 oz.) #4 buckshot load that is perfect for steel targets. It's hard to tell the recoil between birdshot and this stuff.

[Sterling White]

Problems are similar when hunting ducks and geese.....so, what do hunters do? These are some pointers:

- longer barrel

- tighter chokes (mod/full)

- larger diameter shot

- increase dram equivelant (3 to 3 1/4+)

- practice with different loads on steel/clay...some cheap stuff works well

- pattern the gun w/ diff. chokes....4'x4' piece of cardboard at 20 yds (A roll of wrapping paper works too), there should be a 60/40 split: 60% of the holes above the cross and 40% below and you can compare pattern sizes with each change.

And if all else fails...get closer to the target instead of tickling it!

[sargenv]

- longer barrel

- tighter chokes (mod/full)

- larger diameter shot

- increase dram equivelant (3 to 3 1/4+)

Actually, these are things I usually do when faced with targets at longer ranges. I haven't yet made up loads utilizing the hunting wads, but I may do so in the future when I don't want to deal with changing chokes. I can see that someone who might be stuck with a cylinder bore and no choke tubes could utilize these methods to increase their range. Combine those hunting wads with buckshot and you should be able to get nice tight patterns.

There is even nickle plated shot, that resists deformation during firing also

Oddly enough, I just read an article about the plated shots and they found out that shot with a high antimony content (5-6%) did as well as or better than the plated shot at extended ranges. It actually surprised me as this is something I'd been following for a # of years.

The problem with most ranges though, they limit you to size #4 bird shot so you can't generally utilize the larger sizes (#3 bird up to 000 buck). I have a chance to shoot a match coming up that will allow buckshot loads. I'm tempted to try some larger sizes to see if they are more effective with less constricted chokes. We'll see.

Vince

[benny hill]

Yes, it's called a x-tra full turkey choke.

[Paule]

You can also load shells with buffered shot. I still have a couple bags of Grex (from Winchester). It keeps the pellets from deforming as much in the rear of the shot column and patterns will be tighter. It was great for goose loads back before steel shot was mandated. I haven't tried any with a .640 xx-full turkey choke, but it should be like a rifle out to 50 yards or so. (Well, at least very tight! ha ha ha)

[sargenv]

Ballistic products also has buffer and load data for said buffer. Apparently you can't just buffer any load, they reccomend you only buffer loads with a pressure of 8500 psi or so since the buffer increases pressure a bit (up to 1500 psi). I believe they still sell the poly buffer which is like the grex as well as one called Mix #47. The problem you'd have with an extra full choke would be in the combo stages where you have clays or steel to knock over with shot to varying ranges and then you also have a different part of the stage that required slugs, so you'd be forced to use a more open choke for steel and clays so that when it came to slug time, you wouldn't take the front end of your gun off when that .690 slug tried to force itself into a .640 choke.

Vince S.

[go boom]

flechette shot shells hold very tight patterns but are hard to find and expensive. also I'm not sure if there are rules against them

[3GunF1Guy]

Just remember that buffer only keeps the shot from deforming as much on initial set-back. Tis keeps you from having as many "flyers" due to deformed shot. One great way to get a tighter pattern is to have a tighter choke (yes i know we already said that), along those lines is also a thicker shot cup. Remember that any shot cup adds to whatever choke you have in the gun. If you want to see what you gun was really made to shoot use a wad with no pedels. Balistics products has all kinds of wads one of them is the "Z21 Trap Commander" it has an extra thick shot cup. It will add up to an extra choke when you use these wads. If you normaly shoot with an IC choke then the Z21 will make it seem like a MOD.