Proposed Multigun rules Posted for comment on uspsa.org

[Religious Shooter]

Well the guy writing the rules wrote:

I tried to get it in the new rules to be able to pull your holster from the belt or the belt altogether with a pistol in it but was out voted.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140406&view=findpost&p=1672733

The guy who has been shooting 3 gun for a long time thinks it is OK. But the other BOD members (who haven't been shooting 3 gun as long... or at all?) voted the rule down.

Sure... Endersby has taken it to heart that pistol only and MG matches are different. But how about the other voting BOD members?

[frag316]

3) The way I read the appendices, you can't use a gun like the Saiga or the Akdal Mk 1919 (detachable magazines) in any division but Open. Why is that? As long as the gun meets the other requirements for Tactical or Limited, what's the difference if it has a detachable mag if the mag meets the capacity requirements?

What’s the difference?

You’re kidding right?

- After the beep the second mag has no capacity limit.

- 8 shell reload in 6-8 seconds for a tube vs. 2-3 seconds for a mag gun.

- 1 reload in a COF for a mag gun vs. 2,3,4,5,6 reloads for a tube gun.

Leave the mag guns in open.

David E.

I just had another thought on this post--In USPSA pistol, you take a high-capacity gun, stick a big magazine in it, put a comp and red dot on it, and run it in Open, right?

You take the same pistol, knock off the optic and comp, limit the magazine to 170mm, and you're calling it Limited, right?

Same deal with the shotgun, then. You should be able to run a non-ported, magazine-limited gun of a style similar to Open guns in the Limited-equivalent category in multigun (which, in this case, is really Tactical, I guess). Same concept as handguns, just transferred to shotguns.

[RiggerJJ]

3) The way I read the appendices, you can't use a gun like the Saiga or the Akdal Mk 1919 (detachable magazines) in any division but Open. Why is that? As long as the gun meets the other requirements for Tactical or Limited, what's the difference if it has a detachable mag if the mag meets the capacity requirements?

What’s the difference?

You’re kidding right?

- After the beep the second mag has no capacity limit.

- 8 shell reload in 6-8 seconds for a tube vs. 2-3 seconds for a mag gun.

- 1 reload in a COF for a mag gun vs. 2,3,4,5,6 reloads for a tube gun.

Leave the mag guns in open.

David E.

I just had another thought on this post--In USPSA pistol, you take a high-capacity gun, stick a big magazine in it, put a comp and red dot on it, and run it in Open, right?

You take the same pistol, knock off the optic and comp, limit the magazine to 170mm, and you're calling it Limited, right?

Same deal with the shotgun, then. You should be able to run a non-ported, magazine-limited gun of a style similar to Open guns in the Limited-equivalent category in multigun (which, in this case, is really Tactical, I guess). Same concept as handguns, just transferred to shotguns.

NO!

You are comparing apples and oranges, shotguns are not the same as pistols. The standard shotgun is tube fed, add in box mag fed to the same division, and the tubers will go the way of the dodo bird...kinda like saying its ok to put 20 round 1911 type pistols in revolver division.

It is the way it is for a reason...if you wanna shoot revolver, learn how to load it fast. Same with tube fed shotgun divisions; learn how to load it...

jj

Edited June 24, 2012 by RiggerJJ

[Jesse Tischauser]

At CO State (USPSA Multi), we had a preload table and a safety table on every berm. I kept my pistol in a gun rug and simply stepped up to the safety table to put my pistol in my holster and remove it again when finished. Larue wasn't USPSA, but they had basically the same set up with an additional preloading RO to keep an eye on the tables. It really wasn't a big deal and to be honest, it was kind of nice to have a specified place to handle the pistol. You guys can't really expect to have different pistol handling rules from one organization. You're asking USPSA to create a double standard, just so you can drop a deuce.

But the guys and gals that ONLY shoot uspsa pistol matches are obviously idiots! If there wasnt something wrong with them they would be smart enough to be shooting multi-gun too. So with that said I think a double standard for the safe gun handling non-idiots is ok.

In all seriousness, (that means I was joking before) I take my pistol and all my gear off after every stage simply because I don't like all the weight on my person. If you don't have a safe table within 20 -30' of the stage tent and/or my vehicle or let shooters remove their belt leaving the pistol in the holster to then be transferred to their bag while still in the holster people like me will be doing a lot of secret pistol unholsterings in their cars.

I think this will be one of those rules that has to be on the books bsimply brcause of liability but if it's broken safely no RO thats not a complete NAZI should DQ you on it.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[Nuke8401]

+1 to JJ's post,

I came up with the same comparrision:

tube shotgun=revolver

mag shotgun=pistol

David E.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3) The way I read the appendices, you can't use a gun like the Saiga or the Akdal Mk 1919 (detachable magazines) in any division but Open. Why is that? As long as the gun meets the other requirements for Tactical or Limited, what's the difference if it has a detachable mag if the mag meets the capacity requirements?

What’s the difference?

You’re kidding right?

- After the beep the second mag has no capacity limit.

- 8 shell reload in 6-8 seconds for a tube vs. 2-3 seconds for a mag gun.

- 1 reload in a COF for a mag gun vs. 2,3,4,5,6 reloads for a tube gun.

Leave the mag guns in open.

David E.

I just had another thought on this post--In USPSA pistol, you take a high-capacity gun, stick a big magazine in it, put a comp and red dot on it, and run it in Open, right?

You take the same pistol, knock off the optic and comp, limit the magazine to 170mm, and you're calling it Limited, right?

Same deal with the shotgun, then. You should be able to run a non-ported, magazine-limited gun of a style similar to Open guns in the Limited-equivalent category in multigun (which, in this case, is really Tactical, I guess). Same concept as handguns, just transferred to shotguns.

NO!

You are comparing apples and oranges, shotguns are not the same as pistols. The standard shotgun is tube fed, add in box mag fed to the same division, and the tubers will go the way of the dodo bird...kinda like saying its ok to put 20 round 1911 type pistols in revolver division.

It is the way it is for a reason...if you wanna shoot revolver, learn how to load it fast. Same with tube fed shotgun divisions; learn how to load it...

jj

I agree.

The only way it's close is if mag capacity in open is if limited to say 12 like the standard tube fed guns and someone came up with a 12 round speed loader that worked.

[Nuke8401]

I've seen a lot of people talk about how secure a gun is in a holster. Keep in mind that while I use a Safariland ALS for most of my three gunning, which is the same holster I use on duty, there are a lot of people using CR Speed holsters, Limcat, Ghost, Guga, and the rest of the holsters that look more like the trigger guard lock that came with my gun than something to carry it around in. If someone has that Guga holster, which is designed to be removed from the belt with the gun in it. Do you want them walking around the range holding that pistol, pointing it at themselves, others, you? I would have loved to cut this rule, but it just doesn't make sense to do so, particularly since this is a rule set from USPSA.

Are these (CR Speed, Limcat, Chost, and Guga) really used in three gun? I have never seen anything like them at a 3 gun match. I don't know anything about them, maybe others can comment about their retention abilities and if they are used for 3 gun.

My uneducated guess from watching videos of these type holsters is they do not provide sufficient retention for the rigorous movement of 3 gun. If I am correct then this is a non issue since they won’t be at a 3 gun match and we are not trying to force these rules on USPSA handgun matches.

David E.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've seen a lot of people talk about how secure a gun is in a holster. Keep in mind that while I use a Safariland ALS for most of my three gunning, which is the same holster I use on duty, there are a lot of people using CR Speed holsters, Limcat, Ghost, Guga, and the rest of the holsters that look more like the trigger guard lock that came with my gun than something to carry it around in. If someone has that Guga holster, which is designed to be removed from the belt with the gun in it. Do you want them walking around the range holding that pistol, pointing it at themselves, others, you? I would have loved to cut this rule, but it just doesn't make sense to do so, particularly since this is a rule set from USPSA.

Are these (CR Speed, Limcat, Chost, and Guga) really used in three gun? I have never seen anything like them at a 3 gun match. I don't know anything about them, maybe others can comment about their retention abilities and if they are used for 3 gun.

My uneducated guess from watching videos of these type holsters is they do not provide sufficient retention for the rigorous movement of 3 gun. If I am correct then this is a non issue since they won’t be at a 3 gun match and we are not trying to force these rules on USPSA handgun matches.

David E.

Seen them numerous times at matches. Clint Upchurch DQ'd at the 2011 MG Nats when his gun fell out of one, I believe a CR Speed. Kay Miculek DQ'd one year with the same issue. I even remember an MGM Ironman where the whole CR Speed holster slid off the rod and hit the dirt with the gun in it. A friend uses a Limcat and I've seen all of the above. It's way, way more common in Open because there aren't many good choices to retain an open gun. I currently run with a cheesy Kydex thing I molded myself when I shoot my Open Glock and a Safariland 013 when I run a 2011. Both are on ELS plates making the holsters really easy to take on and off.

Here's one that didn't make it in the rule book but is kind of related. Does anyone care about the ability to change holsters during a match? For the Ironman I normally run a regular Kydex holster but on stages where there is a lot of running or a slung gun I swapped to a Safariland ALS holster. Anybody care to be able to swap holsters mid match?

[outerlimits]

Holster switching...sure, no big. But I think you ought to be able to run whatever length tube you want on a tube shotgun. Want an xrail on stage 1, no prob. Want an 8 rd Nordic on the speed course, no big. Want that long 13 round Nordic on the next stage, ok by me. Box fed guys use whatever length they need, so why jack around tube guns? C'mon, it ain't really fixed or it wouldn't be so easy to change out!

I'm sure the mayor will join me on this one...

[michael1778]

Yes, I'd like the ability to change holsters between stages.

I'd also like the ability to change my tube magazine on my Versa Max as described above by "outerlimits". I'm shooting Open so let's have it "open" in that regard. If a magazine fed open shotgun can select between 5, 10, or whatever rounds in the magazines, it doesn't seem like asking much to be able to reconfigure my Open shotgun between stages. I'll be taking a risk that I mess up my shotgun and cause a failure, but that would be my problem. I hope I'm not missing some safety issue here.

Thank you,

Mike

[Alaskapopo]

With that logic you should be able to change barrels too. Sorry I don't agree. On a tube gun the magazine is a fixed part of the weapon. With a box magazine gun the magazine is a component of the weapon. With the same logic our applying you should be able to use different uppers and optics as you see fit on different stages. Nothing at all practical about that and this sport was supposed to have its roots in practical shooting.

Pat

[Nuke8401]

Seen them numerous times at matches. Clint Upchurch DQ'd at the 2011 MG Nats when his gun fell out of one, I believe a CR Speed. Kay Miculek DQ'd one year with the same issue. I even remember an MGM Ironman where the whole CR Speed holster slid off the rod and hit the dirt with the gun in it. A friend uses a Limcat and I've seen all of the above. It's way, way more common in Open because there aren't many good choices to retain an open gun. I currently run with a cheesy Kydex thing I molded myself when I shoot my Open Glock and a Safariland 013 when I run a 2011. Both are on ELS plates making the holsters really easy to take on and off.

Here's one that didn't make it in the rule book but is kind of related. Does anyone care about the ability to change holsters during a match? For the Ironman I normally run a regular Kydex holster but on stages where there is a lot of running or a slung gun I swapped to a Safariland ALS holster. Anybody care to be able to swap holsters mid match?

So we have cases where inadequate holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs.

Are there any cases where pistols removed in holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs?

From the number of DQs you have seen alone, it sounds like these holsters are unsafe for 3 GUN and that needs to be addressed in the rules. I think limiting shooters to one holster that meets some minimum retention requirement is a good idea. Pistol draws in 3 gun are not a big deal and making everyone use a safe/secure holster would have little impact on score.

I would think the BOD would want to take action for a known problem (3 gun holsters) because there is significant liability involved.

“Yes, we knew these holsters were inadequate and resulted in numerous dropped guns/DQs but we didn’t want to impose holster rules on open shooters.” Not sure that would work out well after an accident.

I know “Open is open” and anything should be allowed but this falls into the unsafe category in my book.

David E.

[frag316]

So we have cases where inadequate holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs.

Are there any cases where pistols removed in holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs?

From the number of DQs you have seen alone, it sounds like these holsters are unsafe for 3 GUN and that needs to be addressed in the rules. I think limiting shooters to one holster that meets some minimum retention requirement is a good idea. Pistol draws in 3 gun are not a big deal and making everyone use a safe/secure holster would have little impact on score.

I would think the BOD would want to take action for a known problem (3 gun holsters) because there is significant liability involved.

“Yes, we knew these holsters were inadequate and resulted in numerous dropped guns/DQs but we didn’t want to impose holster rules on open shooters.” Not sure that would work out well after an accident.

I know “Open is open” and anything should be allowed but this falls into the unsafe category in my book.

David E.

+1, but I think the intent is to make the holster issue self-critiquing (and, possibly, generate some revenue for someone who comes up with a fast holster with good retention--good luck).

After all of this back and forth, I'd argue that removing a holstered pistol from a belt is really a non-issue. Guys running open holsters will likely not do it anyway--again, it's self-critiquing.

And, to belatedly answer the issue of being swept with a holstered gun (it was several posts back)--I hope you realize many Open/Limited/Limited 10 shooters using this style of holster sweep themselves every time they sit down--their guns are oriented in such a way that the act of sitting puts the muzzle in line with at least one (if not two or three) body parts.

[Jadeslade]

CR Speeds are very reliable. You can dislocate your shoulder with one of these. One of the safest holsters out here. Has to be adjusted and checked. The time between stages can vary as well as the number of stages . There are often not enough safe tables at matches to do that checking. So like Jesse says, stuff goes on. I have seen the best shooters in just dump their whole belt in the car. The only time I have been shot at by not opposing forces has been by instructors trying to go fast on the draw and putting a round at my feet or by not checking a gun and clearing it before checking trigger and stuff and sending a round past my ear. I'm a pretty cool guy but I made sure that will never happen again. If Brian Enos hands me a gun, I'm checking it. The safety rules have worked pretty good for USPSA, they don't need much changing. I know Chris and he is a cool dude and doesn't fly off the handle or nothing. If I was gonna have a house built, He would build it. He's good, knows his three gun and pistol shooting and is is the best Director Area 2 is ever gonna have. I know Linda and she really knows her stuff, so I trust her. I've shot with Chuck a couple times and he is crabby SOB, but he's been a cop since 1906 and that kind of goes with the territory. I think he makes sensible decisions a lot about USPSA(not too sure about IPSC). I have met and shot at matches with Kyle Farris. They don't get any better as a match director or stage designer or shooter, he can be a PITA on this forum, but in person he's the real deal and ok. The other BOD members I don't really know. I think Phil Strader is a real come down from Mike Voigt as a President and has nowhere near the knowledge base or contacts that Mike had. So results from BOD meetings and so forth seem like so much trouble for so little satisfaction. So, after this long spiel, what about the rule changes?Maybe something needs to be put in about the number of safe areas or tables available, contingencies about bagging guns when its pouring rain, sticking a flag in a preloaded guns is idiotic, and what is all this for-an imaginary change in the future about Multigun or a real need to consolidate rules? The 3GN matches are TV shows, they are not real 3 gun matches-take them out of the mix. Chuck -if you are getting lasered so much (as we call muzzling out here) in the locker room-your group needs retraining. As far as getting lasered at matches-surely you are not putting up with that?

[Chuck Anderson]

Seen them numerous times at matches. Clint Upchurch DQ'd at the 2011 MG Nats when his gun fell out of one, I believe a CR Speed. Kay Miculek DQ'd one year with the same issue. I even remember an MGM Ironman where the whole CR Speed holster slid off the rod and hit the dirt with the gun in it. A friend uses a Limcat and I've seen all of the above. It's way, way more common in Open because there aren't many good choices to retain an open gun. I currently run with a cheesy Kydex thing I molded myself when I shoot my Open Glock and a Safariland 013 when I run a 2011. Both are on ELS plates making the holsters really easy to take on and off.

Here's one that didn't make it in the rule book but is kind of related. Does anyone care about the ability to change holsters during a match? For the Ironman I normally run a regular Kydex holster but on stages where there is a lot of running or a slung gun I swapped to a Safariland ALS holster. Anybody care to be able to swap holsters mid match?

So we have cases where inadequate holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs.

Are there any cases where pistols removed in holsters resulted in dropped guns/DQs?

From the number of DQs you have seen alone, it sounds like these holsters are unsafe for 3 GUN and that needs to be addressed in the rules. I think limiting shooters to one holster that meets some minimum retention requirement is a good idea. Pistol draws in 3 gun are not a big deal and making everyone use a safe/secure holster would have little impact on score.

I would think the BOD would want to take action for a known problem (3 gun holsters) because there is significant liability involved.

“Yes, we knew these holsters were inadequate and resulted in numerous dropped guns/DQs but we didn’t want to impose holster rules on open shooters.” Not sure that would work out well after an accident.

I know “Open is open” and anything should be allowed but this falls into the unsafe category in my book.

David E.

I've seen more DQ's with these holsters at Pistol Matches than 3 Gun. It's not limited to a three gun issue. We used to have a holster test in the rules but did away with it because it really wasn't a good test.

That said, I've also seen a lot of DQ's from what you would probably consider safe and secure holsters. I've seen three DQ's with guns falling out of the Blade Tech DOH alone. Unless you want to require an active safety lock you're not going to fix the issue. And even with that, I guarantee someone will mess it up. I've seen two guns come out of locked CR Speed holsters. The last was as the shooter was trying to explain to me how secure the holster was when locked. I showed him where to smack the gun, he hit it, gun hit the dirt. I think he believes me now.

I haven't seen any DQ's resulting in dropped guns from holsters removed with the guns in them. It's either allowed in the rules, IMGA, or it's not USPSA. I have seen all manner of handling the gun when it's holstered off the body, including removing the gun, cleaning it, checking sights etc. I've probably seen just about every stupid thing you can do with a gun. I'm an LE Firearms Instructor. All kidding aside, most of this is referring to matches though.

The last point on this is a practical one. There aren't secure holsters for most open guns. For the majority of the Tactical divisions I can always find a commercial holster that is very secure. Admittedly this is because I shoot a Glock. But there are more 1911/2011 security holsters on the market than there are for "X" brand open gun. And the more stuff you hang on a gun, the more difficult it is to find a holster to fit it. Optics, comps, *thumb rest [generic]*'s all have an effect on the types of holsters you can use with your gun. Can you show me a holster that would meet your safe and secure criteria for my 2011 with a *thumb rest [generic]* and Cameron's Side C-More mount? Or even better, you about for my SJC Glock with a C-More, *thumb rest [generic]*, and Crimson Trace Light Guard. Pretty sure in the next week or so there will be precisely one in the world, as soon as I get done making it.

[Chuck Anderson]

CR Speeds are very reliable. You can dislocate your shoulder with one of these. One of the safest holsters out here. Has to be adjusted and checked.

As far as getting lasered at matches-surely you are not putting up with that?

Bet you I can get your gun out of your CR Speed very, very easily, and no dislocated shoulder.

As far as getting lasered, at USPSA, of course not. IMGA, can you show me how to deal with that particular issue? In the parking lot, or when the shooter isn't shooting. I might have missed it since I'm not an IMGA certified match official.

And really, "crabby SOB?" I'm like a ray of sunshine on a spring morning. I can't imagine what you're referring to.

[michael1778]

With that logic you should be able to change barrels too. Sorry I don't agree. On a tube gun the magazine is a fixed part of the weapon. With a box magazine gun the magazine is a component of the weapon. With the same logic our applying you should be able to use different uppers and optics as you see fit on different stages. Nothing at all practical about that and this sport was supposed to have its roots in practical shooting.

Pat

I made no mention of barrels and that changes a more fundamental dimension and core functionality of the gun. Pat, I think you are taking the idea too far there. I have not, nor do I intend to advocate for barrel changes on an Open shotgun of any type.

[Alaskapopo]

With that logic you should be able to change barrels too. Sorry I don't agree. On a tube gun the magazine is a fixed part of the weapon. With a box magazine gun the magazine is a component of the weapon. With the same logic our applying you should be able to use different uppers and optics as you see fit on different stages. Nothing at all practical about that and this sport was supposed to have its roots in practical shooting.

Pat

I made no mention of barrels and that changes a more fundamental dimension and core functionality of the gun. Pat, I think you are taking the idea too far there. I have not, nor do I intend to advocate for barrel changes on an Open shotgun of any type.

I know you did not advocate changing barrels. I was making a point. The barrel is no more a fixed part of the gun on a tube fed shotgun than the magazine tube is. Just my opinion.

Pat

[Jadeslade]

CR Speeds are very reliable. You can dislocate your shoulder with one of these. One of the safest holsters out here. Has to be adjusted and checked.

As far as getting lasered at matches-surely you are not putting up with that?

Bet you I can get your gun out of your CR Speed very, very easily, and no dislocated shoulder.

As far as getting lasered, at USPSA, of course not. IMGA, can you show me how to deal with that particular issue? In the parking lot, or when the shooter isn't shooting. I might have missed it since I'm not an IMGA certified match official.

And really, "crabby SOB?" I'm like a ray of sunshine on a spring morning. I can't imagine what you're referring to.

OK, you're on. $10 you can't get my Glock 24 out of the CR Speed I have-without breaking it. Chuck you are crabby, maybe its your knees, but it's you. Hasn't hurt you any, I wouldn't change anything. Well the times I have been lasered the most -at Stage 8 the past two years at Superstition I put my hand on the muzzle and pushed it straight up and said watch your muzzle. It is that particular Stage design with guns on both sides of the road, spectators in the middle of the road and not enough gun racks-I emailed the MD and I suspect they will modify the setup a little bit. Sometimes at a hot range I will say something like, if you laser me one more time, it will be the last time, not usually in the King's English. In the parking lot, or in a cornfield like the Larue match 3 years ago- I walked up to the guy and took his rifle and said "never aim a gun at anyone" unless you want to kill him. Usually works. You have to practice all of this and get some training and this is where I think USPSA can really make some headway. Or have Matt Burkett make a new video about how to leave your house, pack your car, go to match, unload your guns, go to stage and go over all of this in great detail so everybody is on the the same page. How to move around people with guns etc. But you know, even the FBI HRT shoots themselves in the head once in a while. So keep it safe everybody and pay attention. We have a great safety record in USPSA, lets not blow it.

[DocMedic]

With that logic you should be able to change barrels too. Sorry I don't agree. On a tube gun the magazine is a fixed part of the weapon. With a box magazine gun the magazine is a component of the weapon. With the same logic our applying you should be able to use different uppers and optics as you see fit on different stages. Nothing at all practical about that and this sport was supposed to have its roots in practical shooting.

Pat

I made no mention of barrels and that changes a more fundamental dimension and core functionality of the gun. Pat, I think you are taking the idea too far there. I have not, nor do I intend to advocate for barrel changes on an Open shotgun of any type.

I know you did not advocate changing barrels. I was making a point. The barrel is no more a fixed part of the gun on a tube fed shotgun than the magazine tube is. Just my opinion.

Pat

I find it funny that we use the "practical" element of the sport to restrict ourselves in thinking outside of the box, considering Practical means "a idea, plan, or method, likely to succeed or be effective in real circumstances; feasible." The only way changing "uppers/magtubes/etc." wouldn't be feasible is if your trying to change it during the middle of a stage after the beep. This is Open guys,we are already a gear race division and we are about 1/3 the size of Tactical at any given time, why act like elitest? I say lets do it and separate ourselves a bit from other division, hell I bet we might pool in some extra shooters, after all look at Trooper Class at Ironman, it is one of the fastest growing divisions, which pretty much allows the "Anything goes" mentality, as long as you can carry it on your own 2 feet. The only differences here is now you can put it in a cart

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'd have no problem with Open becoming Trooper. I think it would be fun to have a Saiga, XRail, and an SBS in my kit.

[THellURider]

Tag for later reading.

[Stlhead]

Open should be more like trooper, but that argument is beyond the scope of a USPSA multi gun rules discussion I am afraid. I typed up a lengthy post on just that subject before deciding that it would go nowhere and deleted it. If the open boys can't change mag tubes on a shotgun, they certain would not be able to use two shotguns.

[DocMedic]

Open should be more like trooper, but that argument is beyond the scope of a USPSA multi gun rules discussion I am afraid. I typed up a lengthy post on just that subject before deciding that it would go nowhere and deleted it. If the open boys can't change mag tubes on a shotgun, they certain would not be able to use two shotguns.

I would encourage you to post your thoughts on the subject, from the understanding I've read nothing is set in stone 100%. And besides nowhere will never go anywhere, if something isn't brought up.

[Stlhead]

Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

DocMedic, look me up at a match some time, we can drink beer and I will share my warped vision for the future of our sport.