Proposed Multigun rules Posted for comment on uspsa.org

[Dan Sierpina]

I'd have to agree with that although I am not a fan of any of the major/minor stuff in 3 gun. Heck what if I want to shoot .38 super major in HM?

That's easy, run your own match.

[ziebart]

.40 is minimum caliber for major as well as the straight minimum in HM tactical as the rules are currently written.

After these rules come out I don't think there will be many matches that will continue to use hit factor scoring. When they switch to time plus then all the major/minor stuff goes out the window so it is even less of an issue.

[pigfish73]

I've read the entire new list, and yes it's lengthy, but I didn't see anything crazy or out of line. I think it covers most everything just like the pistol rulebook. There are a few rules I had some questions about, though.

1.2 Current USPSA classification - Many 3 gunners don't shoot USPSA pistol. You potentially have a badass 3 gunner shooting Unclassfied or some low classification because he hasn't shot a USPSA pistol match since he started shooting 3 gun.

2.2.1 Handgun carry/transport/safety procedures - The usual stuff about keeping it in the bag until you get to a safety area to holster or leaving it in the holster until the end of the day and bagging up in a safe area is not a issue. That's standard stuff. The problem with 3 gun is that we are constantly changing our belt configuration. The way I interpret the new rules to say that a handgun may be in a holster, on a belt, attached to a competitor means the competitor is not allowed to remove the holster with the handgun still in it. If my next stage doesn't require a handgun then that holster is coming off. I will have to go to the safe area to take off my holster (with the handgun in it), instead of just unlocking the clip that holds the holster to my belt and placing it in my range bag. The gun should be clear if it's in the holster, right? Also, what about removing the entire outer belt to go to the bathroom (if the holster/handgun is still attached)? That sounds like it will be illegal too. Just my opinion since it's not an issue at other big 3 gun matches.

5.3.2 Muzzle - I saw another person post on this. There needs to be some clarification on this since we may be required to sling a long gun at some point. Everybody runs a different type of sling which means guns could potentially be pointing several different directions.

Thanks for the effort to make a complete set of MG rules. I love the Time Plus scoring. Y'all are doing a fine job.

Chris

[Stlhead]

After careful consideration I would like to amend my earlier statement about 1x optics in HM. I originally stated I was neutral on the subject. I now am firmly AGAINST it. Even though I think it is a good to allow them in limited, I think that HM should remain the last bastion of real men and women who shoot .45 caliber pistols with limited capacity, 12 ga PUMP shotguns, and .308 or 30-06 rifles with IRON sights. There needs to be a place for the irons, and it might as well be where the pump gun lives. So argue over if there should be 8 or 10 in the magazine, whether a Glock or XD can play, but loose the red dots, and by all means keep the pump. If the pistol capacity does stay (or go to) 8 then make 6 rnd revolvers legal in .45 or .44 mag as they are not a competitive advantage over a 1911, where arguably a Glock is.

[MiniUzi]

+1 on the comment of lights being OK across the board. I ran with a guy at task force dagger match who had to have a light on his gun since his other holster would not give proper retention. There is no benefit to shooting with the light.

Some of Law Enforcement guys I shoot with are used to shooting with lights and since their lives depends on them shooting with their duty guns that have lights, it is common sense to allow them to do so at matches as they are getting into multigun/3gun.

Regarding muzzles... my local range is muzzle down, other ranges muzzle up. If the guns are flagged does it really matter? Mandate range flags and be done with it. A visual safe indicator with flag down barrel (not mag well) is hard to argue with.

[Jesse Tischauser]

1.2 Current USPSA classification - Many 3 gunners don't shoot USPSA pistol. You potentially have a badass 3 gunner shooting Unclassfied or some low classification because he hasn't shot a USPSA pistol match since he started shooting 3 gun.

2.2.1 Handgun carry/transport/safety procedures - The usual stuff about keeping it in the bag until you get to a safety area to holster or leaving it in the holster until the end of the day and bagging up in a safe area is not a issue. That's standard stuff. The problem with 3 gun is that we are constantly changing our belt configuration. The way I interpret the new rules to say that a handgun may be in a holster, on a belt, attached to a competitor means the competitor is not allowed to remove the holster with the handgun still in it. If my next stage doesn't require a handgun then that holster is coming off. I will have to go to the safe area to take off my holster (with the handgun in it), instead of just unlocking the clip that holds the holster to my belt and placing it in my range bag. The gun should be clear if it's in the holster, right? Also, what about removing the entire outer belt to go to the bathroom (if the holster/handgun is still attached)? That sounds like it will be illegal too. Just my opinion since it's not an issue at other big 3 gun matches.

Chris

I was the B class Tactical National Champ in 2012. I probably should have been A class since I finished 5th overall. Maybe there needs to be a bump after majors?

[Jadeslade]

Rule 3.3.3.1 I don't think placing a chamber flag in a loaded gun is a good idea. Why bother with requiring a safety flag to signify a gun is unloaded if you are going to put one in a loaded gun?

[atomicferret]

Rule 3.3.3.1 I don't think placing a chamber flag in a loaded gun is a good idea. Why bother with requiring a safety flag to signify a gun is unloaded if you are going to put one in a loaded gun?

I agree with this. Either empty guns get a safety flag, or loaded guns do, but not both.

I will be honest and tell you that I have not read through the rules, but i have read all of the comments in this thread.

We should not treat multigun as a "pistol +" kind of match. By this I mean don't try to apply all of the pistol rules to a Multigun match. We shouldn't have to go to a safe area to take a rifle or shotgun off of a cart. we need to have the flexibility to re-configure belts and add or remove holsters with guns in them. if the gun never comes out of the holster, it is as safe as if it were still being worn.

This may make some "pistol only" RO's a bit uncomfortable at first. Guess what, this is a different kind of match, they will learn to accept it, or not. Multigun should not have to kowtow to "Pistol only".

(it may be my opinion that some RO's just need to lighten up, I feel this may have influenced some of my opinions).

Also, i don't understand the need for a classification system. I honestly don't know why Pistol does it either. Bragging rights? Multigun should definitely NOT have anything to do with a Pistol classification.

if a classification system is absolutely necessary, then come up with standards and start a Multigun Classification system. {i think this would be a waste of time; a)it would force MD's to include standards stages which eat up time and space on a range, and b)they generally aren't that fun. My opinion, of course. }

Edited June 22, 2012 by atomicferret

[Religious Shooter]

How about this... if you take off your belt with an empty holstered pistol... and you are within X feet it is OK. The muzzle has to be reasonably pointed down. You can configure your belt, etc. You can't unholster it. No DQ.

The rule says you haven't abandoned a loaded gun unless you are X feet away from it --- this rule is an old rule. So why can't we have an empty holstered pistol within X feet away and not get DQ'd? It's still within our control.

IIRC the rule was set because someone unbelted with an empty holstered pistol and went to the john.

Wouldn't it be nice to go into a port-a-potty, take off your belt with an empty holstered pistol and take a _____ without getting DQ'd?

[co-exprs]

At CO State (USPSA Multi), we had a preload table and a safety table on every berm. I kept my pistol in a gun rug and simply stepped up to the safety table to put my pistol in my holster and remove it again when finished. Larue wasn't USPSA, but they had basically the same set up with an additional preloading RO to keep an eye on the tables. It really wasn't a big deal and to be honest, it was kind of nice to have a specified place to handle the pistol. You guys can't really expect to have different pistol handling rules from one organization. You're asking USPSA to create a double standard, just so you can drop a deuce.

[Nuke8401]

It might help if we know the reason(s) for the rule changes, as in what is the end goal?

If the end goal is to make USPSA multi gun more like other/outlaw matches, then the changes are in the right direction.

If the goal is for USPSA multigun to become the preferred choice of competitors over outlaw matches than shooters will have to "like it" better than outlaw. I don't think this rule set goes far enough and the outcome will fall short unless there is some other overwhelming reason to choose a USPSA match.

So for me, a USPSA member that shoots multigun only, I have no reason to choose a USPSA match over an outlaw match with this rule set. I like USPSA because the rules are well defined but don't like some of the rules as they are/are proposed to be. If the rule sets were equal I would be inclinded to choose a USPSA match because of the RO training, organization and other pluses.

So does the USPSA think these changes will result in the desired outcome?

That is the real question, if not the effort is for not.

Trial and error is a tuff way to get the answer.

Multigun shooter survey maybe?

Will you be more likely to choose a USPSA multigun match over an outlaw match with this rule change?

David E.

[Religious Shooter]

At CO State (USPSA Multi), we had a preload table and a safety table on every berm. I kept my pistol in a gun rug and simply stepped up to the safety table to put my pistol in my holster and remove it again when finished. Larue wasn't USPSA, but they had basically the same set up with an additional preloading RO to keep an eye on the tables. It really wasn't a big deal and to be honest, it was kind of nice to have a specified place to handle the pistol. You guys can't really expect to have different pistol handling rules from one organization. You're asking USPSA to create a double standard, just so you can drop a deuce.

How long have you been shooting 3 gun? It's not to just drop a deuce.

As noted above it's for ease of changing out your gear.

Let me ask you this... are you for DQ'ing a shooter who takes off his belt with an empty holstered pistol?

If you haven't been reading the A2 director (and maybe the A1 director) (both 3 gun shooters) have favored/suggested the relaxation of this rule for MG. Some of the other BOD members are the ones that are for keeping the status quo.

If we "can't really expect to have different pistol handling rules from one organization" then is there really a point to the new rules?

Edited June 23, 2012 by Religious Shooter

[MarkCO]

FWIW, the DQ for removal of an empty holstered pistol was a ruling by DNROI, granted the BOD apparently let it stand, but it was an "interpretation".

[frag316]

I'm in favor of striking this rule. If the gun is cleared and holstered, then it's not unsafe gun handling to remove the holster with a gun in it.

My reasoning? Dropping an unloaded gun outside of the shooting area, when not given a "Make ready" command, is no longer a DQable offense and is not considered unsafe gun handling anymore.

If you can drop a gun, why can't you remove a holstered one? Doesn't pass the good sense test.

[DyNo!]

If you can drop a gun, why can't you remove a holstered one? Doesn't pass the good sense test.

Yup, this shouldn't even be an argument...

I've shot five matches this year with 5 page rule-sets. All of them ran just fine...

I plan to shoot plenty more of them too!

[jwfuhrman]

want a good set of standard rules? They can be found here - http://www.indianamultigun.com/Media/INMG%20Rules%20rev%203-29-12.pdf

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm in favor of striking this rule. If the gun is cleared and holstered, then it's not unsafe gun handling to remove the holster with a gun in it.

My reasoning? Dropping an unloaded gun outside of the shooting area, when not given a "Make ready" command, is no longer a DQable offense and is not considered unsafe gun handling anymore.

If you can drop a gun, why can't you remove a holstered one? Doesn't pass the good sense test.

You're misunderstanding the dropped gun rule. That exists for the case of a gun that is unintentionally dislodged. If the rule was a DQ you'd see people trying to hide it. To pick it up and put it away before people saw. The rule exists to encourage the safe retrieval of that previously cleared firearm. Not to allow someone to handle their firearm without a RO present.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how secure a gun is in a holster. Keep in mind that whil I use a Safariland ALS for most of my three gunning, which is the same holster I use on duty, there are a lot of people using CR Speed holsters, Limcat, Ghost, Guga, and the rest of the holsters that look more like the trigger guard lock that came with my gun than something to carry it around in. If someone has that Guga holster, which is designed to be removed from the belt with the gun in it. Do you want them walking around the range holding that pistol, pointing it at themselves, others, you? I would have loved to cut this rule, but it just doesn't make sense to do so, particularly since this is a ruleset from USPSA.

Someone asked what the purpose behind USPSA doing this was. I can't speak for the whole BOD but my personal reasons were as follows. Multigun is going through a bit of a growth spurt. 15 years ago when I started there were really only a handful of options to shoot big matches. Now there is one almost every month, and sometimes more than one in a month. That's great but most of these are still big matches. Lots of prizes, lots of expense, lots of production value. At some point, likely soon, that is going to start to decline. At some point there will be market saturation with big matches and they won't be able to fully support themselves. What's missing from the three gun scene is local matches. 3GN tried to address this for 2012 but I don't know how well it's working for them since I really haven't heard much about that east coast series. What USPSA is trying to do is create a rule set, with the supporting organization to allow existing USPSA clubs, and even better new clubs, to put local three gun matches on the ground. In addition to allow them to do Local, state, sectional, area and national level matches. All with the same rules from your local club to that big match your going to in Vegas, or Georgia, or West Virginia. Wherever. Not a mandate. Not saying to the IMGA or Outlaw matches that they have to or even should follow our ruleset. If the market of up and coming three gunners pushes that change, great, job done.

That means a few things for this ruleset that IMGA matches don't deal with. They have to be more comprehensive. It's simple for a single IMGA match to say these are all the rules they need when there is an experienced staff on hand that will handle the things not covered in the book the same way because they've been doing it for years. Heck, I'm running a match next month. I managed to get the rule book whittled down to 4 pages. But I've got Travis Gibson as my RM and a whole host of experienced 3 Gun RO's working. I wouldn't expect that level of knowledge from the MD running his first 3 Gun match. Or the shooter shooting his first match.

There are also a few things in there that are based on pistol rules. From my perspective it doesn't make sense to have a USPSA pistol match and a USPSA Multigun match at the same spot, run by the same people and tell a shooter that something he did at one match that was perfectly fine got him DQ'd at the other match.

[Griz]

I don't shoot USPSA, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why does everyone wear their guns all day? Wouldn't it be a lot less stressful and more convenient to keep it bagged and take it from the bag at LAMR? Is it just a holdover from IDPA where you are (theoretically) supposed to be wearing your daily carry gear?

I shoot NRA AP where bagging your gun is the norm. It doesn't seem to take any extra time and you don't risk a DQ from a dropped gun. Plus, I usually shoot multiple guns, so trekking to a safe area every time I needed to switch guns/belts would be very annoying.

[co-exprs]

Some people wear them all day. Others bag it. At the pistol match i wear mine, unless it is really windy, then I bag to keep the dust out of it. In Multigun/3gun, I bag my pistol nearly all the time.

[Religious Shooter]

USPSA needs to recoginize that pistol only matches and 3 gun matches are two different animals... and should be treated as such.

[DyNo!]

USPSA needs to recoginize that pistol only matches and 3 gun matches are two different animals... and should be treated as such.

I agree -

but I don't think that's being considered.

[frag316]

Chuck,

No, I don't think I misunderstand the dropped gun rule, but I think it's inherently safer to remove a pistol in its holster (and the open gun holsters all have locks on them) than to drop one, even accidentally. The logistics of juggling a two long guns and a pistol in a gun bag or the parking of multiple gun carts in a safe area are worse then safely removing a holstered gun from a gun belt.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck,

No, I don't think I misunderstand the dropped gun rule, but I think it's inherently safer to remove a pistol in its holster (and the open gun holsters all have locks on them) than to drop one, even accidentally. The logistics of juggling a two long guns and a pistol in a gun bag or the parking of multiple gun carts in a safe area are worse then safely removing a holstered gun from a gun belt.

That's my point. The dropped gun rule has absolutely nothing to do with saying a gun dropped at any time is safe. The reason it exists it to try and minimize an already unsafe situation.

As far as safely removing a holstered gun. I haven't seen any perfect solutions. I have had holstered guns pointed at me dozens of times at IMGA matches. Never felt safe looking down the muzzle. I've also had holstered, loaded guns pointed at me while changing in the locker room. Never felt particularly safe with that one either. Call me a sissy if you want.

For the folks that think the BOD didn't consider this we did. For those that think the BOD doesn't realize Pistol matches are different than Multigun matches, well look at who made this rule book. Chris Endersby did almost all the work on this one. Chris has been shooting MG longer than many of you have even been shooting at all. I've also shot a couple matches myself as well as being MD and RM for a handful. Linda has worked stats at one or two and even Phil has managed to show up for a three gun here and there. I understand that three gun matches are very different. But I also understand that a club level match just starting out will draw a much different crowd than the $300.00 entry fee match attracting experienced competitors from around the country. The rules need to work for both.

[Benelli Chick]

Chuck,

No, I don't think I misunderstand the dropped gun rule, but I think it's inherently safer to remove a pistol in its holster (and the open gun holsters all have locks on them) than to drop one, even accidentally. The logistics of juggling a two long guns and a pistol in a gun bag or the parking of multiple gun carts in a safe area are worse then safely removing a holstered gun from a gun belt.

That's my point. The dropped gun rule has absolutely nothing to do with saying a gun dropped at any time is safe. The reason it exists it to try and minimize an already unsafe situation.

As far as safely removing a holstered gun. I haven't seen any perfect solutions. I have had holstered guns pointed at me dozens of times at IMGA matches. Never felt safe looking down the muzzle. I've also had holstered, loaded guns pointed at me while changing in the locker room. Never felt particularly safe with that one either. Call me a sissy if you want.

For the folks that think the BOD didn't consider this we did. For those that think the BOD doesn't realize Pistol matches are different than Multigun matches, well look at who made this rule book. Chris Endersby did almost all the work on this one. Chris has been shooting MG longer than many of you have even been shooting at all. I've also shot a couple matches myself as well as being MD and RM for a handful. Linda has worked stats at one or two and even Phil has managed to show up for a three gun here and there. I understand that three gun matches are very different. But I also understand that a club level match just starting out will draw a much different crowd than the $300.00 entry fee match attracting experienced competitors from around the country. The rules need to work for both.

Chuck, I believe you just implied that Chris Endersby is older than dirt!

[dcloudy777]

As far as safely removing a holstered gun. I haven't seen any perfect solutions. I have had holstered guns pointed at me dozens of times at IMGA matches. Never felt safe looking down the muzzle. I've also had holstered, loaded guns pointed at me while changing in the locker room. Never felt particularly safe with that one either. Call me a sissy if you want.

Yeah, you're a sissy. In all seriousness, I have to disagree on this one. Unloaded in a proper holster, a gun is less prone to accidental discharge than it was in the box you bought it in. The trigger guard is covered, holsters are designed to prevent unwanted discharges, gun rugs or range bags are not. You've undoubtedly had hundreds of guns pointed at you while in cases or bags, you just can't see it. I firmly believe that removing a full holster from a belt, or removing a belt with a holstered gun on it altogether, has less potential for bad things happening than putting a gun in a bag or case. Just my free opinion, worth at least what you paid for it.