Staffing and Propping a Nationals

[Barrettone]

This is a bit of a cross-over topic, in that I am going to refer to two topics, but with pistol Nats coming up, they both apply and relate to one another. This has been discussed in one form or another in a few threads, but I want to delve into it a bit deeper. We all agree that we want only the BEST officials that we can get for a premier event such as a nationals. However, the cost of mobilizing the staff is a large portion of the budget for this event, along with props, of course. My question is this...Could we "regionalize" nationals staffing based on where the event is being held??? This would keep costs down bit, as we would be drawing staff from within the area of the match. I personally feel that each area has the quality and quantity of willing persons to do so, and it might help to reduce costs while still providing good officiating. This is not to say others out-of-area could not also work, but the stipend would be reduced to where they would need to pay the difference. There are a couple of things that need to be addressed also, and that is that there are only a couple of places that can currently hold a combined nats, like we have been forced into to keep costs down, and we would need to rotate nats a little more after the PASA deal has expired. This would mean that a couple of nearby clubs would need to go in together to get the bays necessary, or they would need to do a changeover. The second issue (as I see it) would be that we would need to address the costs involved with props for our nationals. Year after year, an exhorbenant amount of money gets put into props. Now don't get me wrong, we NEED to have them, but there are some things that get paid for again and again, year after year. Why don't we have a semi-trailer with modular wall sections (hinged in places), misc. activators, some poppers, with a shelving unit of supplies that simply travels nats to nats each year, and we get to re-use some of these things rather than paying over and over??? Now, granted, SOME things have to still be bought, but the core costs could be greatly reduced. We could simply pay $300-$400 to have a semi-tractor haul it once (or multiple times for seperate nats) a year, and the savings would be immense. The up-front cost would be very minimal (approximately $5000 for a semi-trailer in excellent shape, and the contents would be about $5,000 to $7,000 to start, and would grow with each match. (Please read the match budget for nationals last year before responding...you won't believe what got spent on props and staffing. Go to Members Area USPSA and click "board minutes" in left margin, and then "in person minutes" for the nationals financials.) It would also save a lot of set-up time, as the walls would be pre-constructed, and lightweight (2x2's with corplast). I think it is an idea worth discussing, and want to hear what all you people think about the staffing and props issues. We all want a quality nats, and we all want good officiating...but can it be streamlined a bit to help us possibly go back to having seperate nationals rather than a combined that takes a week, and makes you choose your gun??? Just a thought, fire away...

Jeff

[Barrettone]

OH, BTW...I also concede that part of the benefit to the host club, is that they get to retain the props. I would recommend a splitting of them between the USPSA traveling rig, and the club to still render some help to the host club for their efforts. After all, you can only fit so much in a semi trailer anyway. I would just like to see the nationals at least break even, as we need to be fiscally responsible...If you look at the "variance" in the right column, you will see that lodging and props were two of the biggest culprits in the $10,000 worth of losses (about 7,500 worth).

Jeff

[davidwiz]

USPSA is already saving a boat load of $$$ by having 1 National, rather than 3 separate pistol nationals as they did in '03 - Factory, Limited and Open (Yes I know the Limited and Open were shot back-to-back, but still...)

As far as staffing, from what I've seen for this year, 24 stages, with 1 CRO and 2-3 ROs for each stage.

[Barrettone]

Hey David,

That is kinda my point though...Could we streamline things and STILL have seperate nats, AND can we save by re-using SOME high-value props instead of buying again year after year??? I agree, that combining the nats is a TREMENDOUS cost-saver. There are some, though, that would like to be able to shoot multiple divisions, and that is not possible with the current format. I hope that this clarifies where I am going with the discussion. Thank you for pointing out that my point may have been ambiguous though. As an aside, it is also not the most junior-friendly format, even though some concessions have been made. That could, however, be remedied by having the nats during the summer months. I think that we should still continue to find ways to save money while still putting on a world-class event. Just combining nats is not the superlative answer.

Cheers,

Jeff

[mactiger]

Every year, USPSA puts out an open invitation for people to apply to staff Nationals. The NROI instructors also encourage the people they teach to apply to staff Nationals. We get applications from across the country (Florida to Alaska), but what we don't get is a preponderance of applicants from so-called "local" RO's. It takes roughly 70-80 staff members to make a 20 stage match work. People don't apply to work Nationals for various reasons--the timing is bad, they can't take that much time off work, they don't like RO'ing, etc. Not everyone who gets certified as an RO turns into a good one, and not everyone that gets certified does so because he or she wants to work matches. Many people go to the seminar to learn the rules and help their clubs out (and they don't want to be ignorant of the rules they are trying to enforce--that's not a bad thing). But, they are out of the "pool" so to speak, simply because they don't want to RO beyond the monthly club match. Consider the fact that I have yet to find anyone who will admit to getting into IPSC shooting because they wanted to RO, and you reduce the number of people who are willing to give up a week or more of their time to work a big match. Then, subtract the number of ROs who feel that they work enough at the club, section, and area level, and the number available for Nationals goes down. Subtract the ones who want to shoot for score, but can't, and the numbers go down even more. Subtract the ones that simply want to shoot, period: they don't mind holding a timer occasionally at the local match, but wouldn't think of standing around for a week in the weather watching other people shoot and, wait, is there an echo in here?!?

Then, factor the cost: even though USPSA covers room and food on the range, and even some travel expenses, it's still not cheap to travel to a match and stay there for a week or more. Pool's looking pretty empty now, isn't it?

Even though local range officers are ideal for staffing a match, the plain fact is that they are hard to find, and many of them aren't truly "local". They may drive 2-3 hours to shoot a match at a club once a month, but they sure aren't going to drive 4-6 hours every day to commute to the Nationals. Hence, hotel bills and food.

One of the reasons prop costs were high (as reflected in the budget you mention) is that the majority of the walls were destroyed by a freakishly huge thunderstorm at the end of the match in 2002, and had to be rebuilt. The props that belong to USPSA belong to USPSA, and are merely stored at PASA, per the contract. I can't speak for any of the other venues.

The idea of a traveling trailer full of props and targets has been discussed before, by many of the people responsible for producing Nationals and other large matches. It usually sounds really good at first, but the negatives end up outweighing the positives. You usually end up needing more walls than you planned on, you never have enough spikes, things end up broken, etc. One trailer load would probably snowball into three by the end of a couple of Nationals spotted around the country. It may be feasible if there were a dedicated crew to go with the trailer, tools and supplies loaded in for repairs or modifications, and don't forget living quarters for the crew, plus some way to get them where they need to be. Oh, yeah, they gotta eat, too. All of that adds up to real money. Maybe not more than some Nationals have cost, but close enough, I'd bet.

And, if you leave half the props at the host club, where will you get the props you need at the next match? Can you say "Home Depot"?

The fact is that producing a match, any match, costs money. USPSA strives to make the Nationals the premier shooting event in the country. That takes good props, good targets, and good people. I'm not slamming local "talent"--we use all the local help we can get. This year, I think there are 5 people from the Quincy/Barry area that signed up to work the match--and they'll be driving anywhere from 30-50 miles (one way) each day just to get there. There is exactly one (1) member of the setup crew from Quincy--the match director, Ray Hirst. The remainder are coming from all over the country, and I'm thankful that they are volunteering their time and talent to help produce the Pistol Nationals.

I don't mean to sound harsh about this, but I hear this every year: if they could use all the local RO's, then they wouldn't have to pay travel, housing, etc. It just isn't so, because there aren't that many local RO's.

I wholeheartedly agree that Nationals should break even, and that fiscal responsibility is a must. Props and housing aren't the only thing that cost money, though.

Troy

[Nate]

One CRO on each stage who never runs a shooter. Divide the responsibilites between the shooters on the squad equally and get on with it. Having $10,000 worth of staff for a non professional event is weak. How many of the top shooters are making all there $ from sponsered shooting? Not many. Require a reasonable RO course in the first two years after joining and you can't go to nationals until you pass it. No criticism intended but the quality of RO's might go up. I understand that we want an even field, but this kind of "growth" may not be what is best. We might need less "important" people. Nate

[Barrettone]

Thanks for the input Troy...I value your opinion immensely, as you have "been there, done that". You raise some very interesting points, and maybe, just maybe, it is just that the dollars, when added together seem more staggering than they really are. As for the windstorm...someone didn't do their hakka dance to the IPSC gods, and hopefully it is a valuable lesson learned!!! Troy, it sounds like you tire of hearing the "same 'ol topic" come up year after year. The bigger issue I was looking at is ways to keep the nats as seperate "matches" to further participation in multiple divisions while still being fiscally responsible. Your thoughts on that??? Please don't kill the messenger. I truly feel that the match staff and RO's deserve everything USPSA can give them...afterall, I'm one of those people too, so I would think that I'm pretty objective on the issue. I hope you understand where I'm going. I did not know that when you "select match staff", that there isn't a lot of local talent applying. That is why I asked the questions. Sorry if there is redundance here. We have been spoiled the last few years by having seperate nats, and I guess that "seperation axiety" is setting in for some. Is it beneficial from a staffing standpoint to have one large event??? Do we avoid burnout, or does it come at a cost because potential match officials can't get the time off??? In short, what seem to be the trade-offs??? BTW...when I said leave half the props, I meant half of the "new" props for that year. Sorry for the ambiguity. You are right about the "snowball effect" though, as eventually, there would be a large inventory of props!!! Is that all bad??? I agree it would be a lot to manage though.

Cheers,

Jeff

[mactiger]

One CRO on each stage who never runs a shooter. Divide the responsibilites between the shooters on the squad equally and get on with it. Having $10,000 worth of staff for a non professional event is weak. How many of the top shooters are making all there $ from sponsered shooting? Not many. Require a reasonable RO course in the first two years after joining and you can't go to nationals until you pass it. No criticism intended but the quality of RO's might go up. I understand that we want an even field, but this kind of "growth" may not be what is best. We might need less "important" people. Nate

This has been done, and the consistency of officiating from stage to stage suffered a lot. Sometimes you get what you pay for. As for requiring an RO class, well, that went over like a lead balloon on this forum.

As for quality of officials, if you have specific complaints, bring them to me or John Amidon, or any NROI instructor. We've been working pretty hard to ensure good quality staff, at least at any match I've been involved with--I can't speak for some of the others.

Troy

[mactiger]

The bigger issue I was looking at is ways to keep the nats as seperate "matches" to further participation in multiple divisions while still being fiscally responsible. Your thoughts on that??? Please don't kill the messenger. <snip>

Is it beneficial from a staffing standpoint to have one large event??? Do we avoid burnout, or does it come at a cost because potential match officials can't get the time off??? In short, what seem to be the trade-offs???

Hi, Jeff.

Sorry for being abrupt, but it is usually the same old thing year after year--complaints and suggestions from people who know nothing about Nationals, most of whom have never been to one. At least you are the exception to this rule, since you'll be working the match this year.

Here is my opinion on Nationals: Having a National championship match for each division is not cost effective. This has been known ever since USPSA went to two Nationals--one Open, one Limited, back in 1993. It effectively more than doubles the cost to produce the match. Having back to back matches at the same location cuts some of that cost, per match, but having two separate back to back matches in two different locations adds it back in, basically. I am in favor of one match, pick a division and "run what you brung". That way, there is one staffing pool, one set of hotel bills, etc. Plus, more shooters in one match means a bigger margin for income vs. expenses for that match.

This year, USPSA has a 3 Gun and a Pistol Nationals. It might have been more cost efficient to have these back to back in one location, I don't know. I do know that we'd have only had to use one set of props, one range staff, etc., and since the 3 Gun was shot in about 3 days, it would not have doubled the time required.

Some of the people who produce Nationals have a lot of experience with doing that, and we tend to go with the tried and true method, unless someone comes up with some innovation that is a bona fide improvement.

I understand your desire to improve things, and make suggestions. Nothing wrong with that, and I appreciate the input.

Troy

[Skywalker]

It takes roughly 70-80 staff members to make a 20 stage match work.

I understand there is a tremendous difference in attendance to U.S. Nationals when compared to Italian Nationals, but here is the usual staff for our 16-stages (2 x 8 stages areas), 260/280 competitors, 2-days match Nationals:

2 RMs (1 per Range Area),

2 SOs (1 per Range Area),

16 CROs (1 per Stage),

18 ROs (1 per stage + 2 at chrono),

______________________________

38 Match Officials in total

Patchers are the competitors, hustlers are usually members of the hosting club who will help patch and reset targets as well.

Having a National championship match for each division is not cost effective

Our feelings here in Italy too .

[Wildman]

Skywalker, who is handling stats, and are there any runners (folks trouble shooting props, delivering score sheets, and drinks for RO's) in the mix?

[Skywalker]

Stats are handled by the 2 Statt Officers (SOs), who usually collect the scoresheets by themselves: they kinda hourly have a walk through the area they are SOing and collect the scoresheets.

Runners, meaning people helping with props troubleshooting, servicing ROs with food and drinks, helping patching and so on, are members from the hosting club.

Here is the usual mechanism to host Pistol Nationals in Italy.

At the beginning of the year, Italian Federation holds an auction among affiliated clubs: whoever provides the lowest quote to set-up the match (in the above specified format), service ROs, provide all props and consummables as well as an appropriate number of helpers, will host the Nationals. In other words whoever provides our Federation and NROI staff with an on-the-road price to run the match is awarded the organization.

Then, it is the club's responsibility to spend no more than what they will be awarded by the Federation, which, at this point, has only to collect match registration fees and pay the ROs and the hosting club.

[hoser]

One CRO on each stage who never runs a shooter. Divide the responsibilites between the shooters on the squad equally and get on with it. Having $10,000 worth of staff for a non professional event is weak. How many of the top shooters are making all there $ from sponsered shooting? Not many. Require a reasonable RO course in the first two years after joining and you can't go to nationals until you pass it. No criticism intended but the quality of RO's might go up. I understand that we want an even field, but this kind of "growth" may not be what is best.  We might need less "important" people. Nate

Hey Troy,

"One CRO who never runs a shooter...." Can you please break the news to Denise that I will not be running any shooters at Nats this year?

Thanks, man, I know I could not get away with telling her that.

Arnie

[Nate]

My point was that the RO would be there for quality control. Manage not micro-manage. My only complaint about RO's at big matches is that they are asked to show airline pilot attention for 3 or 4 really long days. Most are great, some are not, welcome to the real world. If you want to go to nationals complete a RO class. As for stats, write the check. The reason we can't find RO's is that we don't have many good shooters acting as RO's. What does the new shooter see? Does TGO want to RO? No. Would he and not bitch? Yes.

[mactiger]

Hey Troy,

"One CRO who never runs a shooter...."  Can you please break the news to Denise that I will not be running any shooters at Nats this year? 

Thanks, man, I know I could not get away with telling her that.

Arnie

Uh, yeah, I'll tell her that...

Right after I tell the competitors that they are ROing themselves (but only the mediocre ones). I hope they know the range commands.

Sorry dude, wrong format!

Troy

[GENE S]

One CRO & one RO can run a stage by themself, if the squad is willing to help tape and set steel. At the nationals, they have local people aid the stages in painting steel or setting steel. This has always made the stages run smooth, as long as they wern't long field courses. Then you would need a extra person to tape and help set steel. The problem comes in when the shooters who have just payed $300

bucks or so do not want to have to set and paint steel, tape targets and all of that and you sort of can't blame them. Tiger Woods dont cary his gulf bag.

Having the Nationals as they are this year should improve the finatural problem that they have had in the past, you just have to decide which gun you want to use in advance.

[mactiger]

We haven't had a significant number of PASA volunteers in a few years. Not enough so that the competitors don't have to pitch in with taping painting. Other venues may have a bigger pool of local gun club volunteers, I don't know.

Troy

[Nate]

"pitch in with taping and painting" What? Work or leave should be the concept. When did a tiny pay to play sport get so self important? There is a difference between a well produced match and a match where people who should be doing work stand and watch. I percieve that I am a heritic here so I will abandon this argument, but the basic attitude is a little odd to me. Nate

[Barrettone]

Thanks for all the responses so far. I get the idea that the regionalized RO thing just isn't feasible from the information recieved here, and the jury seems to be out on a dedicated nationals prop trailer. I understand that a singular nationals is probably the "wave of the future", but I do wonder, as Troy alleviated to, if we could use the pistol stages from the handgun nats, and parlay those results to the 3-Gun Nats where long gun would be shot, possibly the following weekend, or simultaneously at another nearby club. Same match hotels, one mobilization, same staffing, and people could shoot both venues if they wanted. Costs would invariably go down, but the logistics of pumping 900 shooters through could be daunting, and people might not have the time off to attend such an event, unless some things overlapped, and scheduling concessions were made for 3-Gunners. Additionally, multigun is still an issue, as well as having to pick only certain pistol stages for inclusion in the match results for 3-Gun, as otherwise, it would be far too pistol-heavy. Oh the quandry!!! It would all also have to be held in a summer month, as to avoid a junior shooter dilemna, as we encountered this year. OK, my head hurts now. What was the origional question???

Jeff

PS Arnie, you did tell Denise that she has to come down to my stage and run shooters for me when she is on break...right??? That one should be good for a skillet upside the head...OUCH!!!

[kimel]

Don't forget that there needs to be relief staff as well so that 1 CRO and 1 RO to run a stage just isn't going to play. Do you want to be the squad that waits while the CRO and RO run off to use the facilities?

Understaffing to save a few $$$ is counter-productive. You then overwork the staff you have and guess what? Many of them will not come back again.

[dminor]

Hoser & Barrettone,

With talk like this I may have to organize a RO crawl off from both your stages straight to the Ritz & leave the two of you on your own!!!

Kimel,

I have worked at a Nationals every year since 1987 and I have yet to see a relief staff crew come to my aid when I needed a potty break. As I think of it though, my stages have always run well & smooth so I always had a few minutes to do whatever is necessary.

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment since I keep coming back.

[hoser]

Hoser & Barrettone,

With talk like this I may have to organize a RO crawl off from both your stages straight to the Ritz & leave the two of you on your own!!! 

But, but, but....... you can't organize an RO crawl off, Barrettone and I can't run shooters, we are CRO's!

On a more serious note, however, back in the day when there were actually PASA volunteers, that was a great addition. Unfortunately, some of the certified ROs did not treat the PASA volunteers as well as they should. Let's face it, a volunteer is giving up their time to help and if they get treatly poorly, they will not be back.

Also, regarding competitors at Nationals taping targets, in my opinion, over the last few years I think there has been an increase in the incidents of a shooter who has a bad run, getting a target taped before the RO's can score the target thereby giving the shooter with the bad run a reshoot. Sad, but I think it is true. There is no way to prove a target was taped intentionally, about the only thing to be done is for the staff to inform the RM, who can then track that squad to see if "pre-taping" is happening often.

If every large match could have volunteers to tape targets, both the match officials and the shooters would be happy.

Arnie

[Skywalker]

Arnie,

you saw the "Italian way" at our match, that's exactly the same that goes on for Italian Nationals, only on a larger scale (roughly double the number of stages).

[davidwiz]

Arnie,

About the "accidentialy on purpose" premature pasting of targets - it happens. At one match I was working at a few years ago, I was warned about it by another more experienced RO. There was this group of 4 people who always shot together, where ever they went. The RO told me that a after one of them was done shooting, the other three would spread out, pasters in hand and look at each target before the RO had a chance to see them and if the shooter had a bad run or one of their crew saw a miss the target would get taped "accidently on purpose". Having been warned of this, on the stage I was working, when this crew came up, whoever was the scorekeeper RO would position themselves that they could see all the targets and be real obvious about it. You could see what they were trying to do, but since the other RO was watching them like a hawk, they didn't get a chance to do anything. Sad that we have to be on the lookout for this type of behaviour.

When a target is truly taped prematurely, it is usally by someone new to the sport who got a little overeager and it just happens that one time.

-David

Edited July 27, 2004 by davidwiz

[hoser]

Arnie,

About the "accidential" premature pasting of targets - it happens.  At one match I was working at a few years ago, I was warned about it by another more experienced RO.  There was this group of 4 people who always shot together, where ever they went.  The RO told me that a after one of them was done shooting, the other three would spread out, pasters in hand and look at each target before the RO had a chance to see them and if the shooter had a bad run or one of their crew saw a miss the target would get taped "accidently".  Having been warned of this, on the stage I was working, when this crew came up, whoever was the scorekeeper RO would position themselves that they could see all the targets and be real obvious about it.  You could see what they were trying to do, but since the other RO was watching them like a hawk, they didn't get a chance to do anything.  Sad that we have to be on the lookout for this type of behaviour.

-David

David,

I know that it happens accidentally from time to time, that is not a problem. Heck, I have been around the block a few times.

But, after having worked as an RM at many area matches and nationals, I still say there is an unfortunate trend for a very few people to try this technique. And, as an RM, I inform the staff of certain squads and then the staff does pay particular attention so this can be prevented.

Arnie