PKT1106 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a Springfield XDM40 that I want to use to start shooting production. The only issue it has is that the slide stop broke and now I need to replace it. This is where I had a question about parts and pieces for production approved guns. I contacted Mr. Amidon about if the gun would be production legal without a slide stop. After a few back and forth emails, I was informed that missing parts (including the slide stop) are considered a prohibited modification. A production gun must be a complete gun, with all the factory parts installed, to be considered legal. I found this interesting in my case of a broken slide stop and I wanted to clarify before I got bumped to open minor. This may have been intuitively obvious to some, but others, like me, may not have known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycallmeingot Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I broke a roll pin in my XDM yesterday. right now i have a roll pin that is 1/4 inch too long sticking out of the top so that the gun functions, until the right one comes in the mail. i wonder if my gun is no longer production legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Last year John Amidon told me I could remove a decock lever on my production gun that was interfering with my grip. It still functions normally with the ambi lever on the other side though...now I'm wondering if I'm legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 You can replace the part with a new one that is offerred from the factory. Example: you can run the extended mag release that comes stock on a g34 and 35 on a 17 in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I personally don't think either gun is legal. Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move the shooter to Open Division. 21.6 Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OEM or aftermarket parts. Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 You can replace the part with a new one that is offerred from the factory. Example: you can run the extended mag release that comes stock on a g34 and 35 on a 17 in production. As long as the same extended mag release is offered on an approved version of the 17 from the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Last year John Amidon told me I could remove a decock lever on my production gun that was interfering with my grip. It still functions normally with the ambi lever on the other side though...now I'm wondering if I'm legal. He should not have said that was OK as it is an external modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 You can replace the part with a new one that is offerred from the factory. Example: you can run the extended mag release that comes stock on a g34 and 35 on a 17 in production. As long as the same extended mag release is offered on an approved version of the 17 from the factory. Not so: Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OEM or aftermarket parts. Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below . Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. Special Notes/Clarifications: • A factory/OEM magazine release which extends only the length of the magazine release may be used. A magazine release which provides larger surface area (paddles, buttons) may only be used if it is an OEM part available on an approved model of gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Last year John Amidon told me I could remove a decock lever on my production gun that was interfering with my grip. It still functions normally with the ambi lever on the other side though...now I'm wondering if I'm legal. I just thought of something. Could a decock lever be considered a safety mechanism? If it could be defined as a safety then it absolutely can not be inoperable. This one article seems to think so: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CGgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffirearmshistory.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F07%2Fsafety-mechanisms-decocking-lever.html&ei=c93XT_zNA7KN6QGpsfWQAw&usg=AFQjCNFk3vsS2y8d3vElYsCTdjy33wP5ug&sig2=EdNbULKI9-Irnxmh3LOAXg Edited June 13, 2012 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I guess I better shoot that gun in L10 minor. Or maybe I just need a new gun. Any excuse right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The decock lever is ambi. Right side is functional and intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 It's not a safety. Some CZ's have to be decocked manually with trigger and hammer only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I'm with Sarge on this, 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 It's not a safety. Some CZ's have to be decocked manually with trigger and hammer only. If a gun has a decocker it may be used during loading it can not be used however during if clear, hammer down and holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I understand the illegal production mod...but the safety issue? Non issue in my opinion as there is still a functional decock lever on the gun. I'll order a new fire control group and the problem is resolved. Sorry for the thread hijack. Thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 We're only discussing LAMR and decocking a hammer fired gun with no manual safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Last year John Amidon told me I could remove a decock lever on my production gun that was interfering with my grip. It still functions normally with the ambi lever on the other side though...now I'm wondering if I'm legal. He should not have said that was OK as it is an external modification. If an approved model is available in that configuration then you are OK. If it creates a gun configuration that is unavailable from the factory, then you are shooting Open/Minor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Last year John Amidon told me I could remove a decock lever on my production gun that was interfering with my grip. It still functions normally with the ambi lever on the other side though...now I'm wondering if I'm legal. What Production gun are you referring to? There aren't too many with ambi Decockers. You might have removed the decock and made it into another approved model. I could see something like this with the HK USP series. The levers are made in several different configurations, including models that don't have them at all. If this was the case, maybe. If it's a CZ, I think you're out of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I contacted Mr. Amidon about if the gun would be production legal without a slide stop. After a few back and forth emails, I was informed that missing parts (including the slide stop) are considered a prohibited modification. A production gun must be a complete gun, with all the factory parts installed, to be considered legal. I found this interesting in my case of a broken slide stop and I wanted to clarify before I got bumped to open minor. This may have been intuitively obvious to some, but others, like me, may not have known. What happens if the slide stop breaks, falls off or whatever during a match? I have a GLOCK that broke the external part of its slide stop off when I had a case head separation, the gun was fully functional after the incident just the little metal piece was missing, this happened during a practice session so no big deal, but if this happened during a match and I did not have a replacement on hand would I be bumped to Open? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I contacted Mr. Amidon about if the gun would be production legal without a slide stop. After a few back and forth emails, I was informed that missing parts (including the slide stop) are considered a prohibited modification. A production gun must be a complete gun, with all the factory parts installed, to be considered legal. I found this interesting in my case of a broken slide stop and I wanted to clarify before I got bumped to open minor. This may have been intuitively obvious to some, but others, like me, may not have known. What happens if the slide stop breaks, falls off or whatever during a match? I have a GLOCK that broke the external part of its slide stop off when I had a case head separation, the gun was fully functional after the incident just the little metal piece was missing, this happened during a practice session so no big deal, but if this happened during a match and I did not have a replacement on hand would I be bumped to Open? Mike Sucks, but let me ask you this. If your firing pin safety suddenly fell out of a match leaving you without that functioning as a safety would it be a bump to Open? There is nothing in the rules about intent in how the modifications are made. If the gun is modified, intentionally, accidentally, by the rabid squirrel that lives in your gun bag it doesn't matter. If we start trying to attribute motive to the modifications it's a whole other section to an already long rule book. To put it another way, before Production, when I was shooting Glocks in Limited, I trimmed the slide stop on most of my guns and flat out removed it on others. Let's say I was still doing that particular modification and make it halfway through the Nationals before an RO notices. If we try to allow broken parts to be an excuse I would probably be standing there with an innocent look on my face saying, "Well golly gee, it must have broken off during the stage. It was just there a minute ago." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I contacted Mr. Amidon about if the gun would be production legal without a slide stop. After a few back and forth emails, I was informed that missing parts (including the slide stop) are considered a prohibited modification. A production gun must be a complete gun, with all the factory parts installed, to be considered legal. I found this interesting in my case of a broken slide stop and I wanted to clarify before I got bumped to open minor. This may have been intuitively obvious to some, but others, like me, may not have known. What happens if the slide stop breaks, falls off or whatever during a match? I have a GLOCK that broke the external part of its slide stop off when I had a case head separation, the gun was fully functional after the incident just the little metal piece was missing, this happened during a practice session so no big deal, but if this happened during a match and I did not have a replacement on hand would I be bumped to Open? Mike Sucks, but let me ask you this. If your firing pin safety suddenly fell out of a match leaving you without that functioning as a safety would it be a bump to Open? There is nothing in the rules about intent in how the modifications are made. If the gun is modified, intentionally, accidentally, by the rabid squirrel that lives in your gun bag it doesn't matter. If we start trying to attribute motive to the modifications it's a whole other section to an already long rule book. To put it another way, before Production, when I was shooting Glocks in Limited, I trimmed the slide stop on most of my guns and flat out removed it on others. Let's say I was still doing that particular modification and make it halfway through the Nationals before an RO notices. If we try to allow broken parts to be an excuse I would probably be standing there with an innocent look on my face saying, "Well golly gee, it must have broken off during the stage. It was just there a minute ago." Good point, its hard enough to enforce rules with facts let alone trying to divine intent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Chuck, I like that. A modification is a modification, no matter how it was made. But, I have a question.... If the modification was made during a match, I.E. the slide stop breaks in the middle of a COF, does a the shooter get a chance to fix it after the stage with the spare he has in his range bag? Or does he get moved to open anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I have a question. If the slide stop lever appears normally on the gun but is non functioning (either through internal mod or malfunction) it's still allowed in production right? If my left side decock lever (on my FNP9) appears normal but has been disabled through an internal mod is it production legal? Keep in mind the right side decock lever is full size and fully functioning. Should I reattach it so it appears box stock? The problem is the lever is very sensitive so any contact while firing only allows the hammer to drop to half cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have a question. If the slide stop lever appears normally on the gun but is non functioning (either through internal mod or malfunction) it's still allowed in production right? If my left side decock lever (on my FNP9) appears normal but has been disabled through an internal mod is it production legal? Keep in mind the right side decock lever is full size and fully functioning. Should I reattach it so it appears box stock? The problem is the lever is very sensitive so any contact while firing only allows the hammer to drop to half cock. The decock is not a "wholly" internal part and can not be modified. And I still say it is a safety mechanism that can not be disabled. Remember, the RM can make you demonstrate that things work as they should on a gun. Also, remember, in Production any changes you make to the gun you have to be able to site a rule allowing it or it is Prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Chuck, I like that. A modification is a modification, no matter how it was made. But, I have a question.... If the modification was made during a match, I.E. the slide stop breaks in the middle of a COF, does a the shooter get a chance to fix it after the stage with the spare he has in his range bag? Or does he get moved to open anyway? That'll depend on how kind and gently the RM is...... Most have a pretty good BS detector, and a kind and gentle heart.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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