Shotgun Magazine Capacity in Non-Open Divisions

[Chuck Anderson]

If you don't have any restrictions isn't that pretty much open division?

What open is really about is optics and muzzle brakes and speed loaders/mag fed shotguns. We don't limit the rifle capacity in tac optics or limited so why with the shotgun. (at least you could argue that) I say it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pat

But we do have limits on handgun capacity. (Every match I'm aware of has 140mm or something similar for Tactical).

[AlamoShooter]

If you don't have any restrictions isn't that pretty much open division?

What open is really about is optics and muzzle brakes and speed loaders/mag fed shotguns. We don't limit the rifle capacity in tac optics or limited so why with the shotgun. (at least you could argue that) I say it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pat

But we do have limits on handgun capacity. (Every match I'm aware of has 140mm or something similar for Tactical).

thats a limit in Size - not capacity less than 2" past the end of the barrel would be a reasonable rule. even though I dislike any thing that smells of a rule change

[DyNo!]

I'm a fan of 8+1.

I don't know why everyone is changing it all of a sudden and before you know it - we will all be running around with "Sir-Lance-a-Lot" jousting shotguns.

Unfortunately, my 21" will probably be sporting a 12+1 capacity at the Rockcastle shotgun match and 10+1 at all other matches not 8+1.

A shotgun with a 5' long tube is impractical...

A practical small arm should be able to be transported in a passenger vehicle without being disassembled to fit!

Edited May 22, 2012 by DyNo!

[StealthyBlagga]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

Choice is the essence of a free market. Right now the market's preference is pretty clear - matches under IMA rules without capacity limit fill within days (SMM3G 2012 took less than 2 days to fill), whereas USPSA matches with capacity limit often do not fill.

My Tactical division shotgun has a 26" barrel with 10+1+1 capacity. Under most IMA rules, I start with 8+1 loaded, then load extra after the beep as needed. If I want to shoot in a capacity-limited match, it is a simple matter of adding a 4" length of dowel - about the same $$$ as one round of ammo. Hardly a huge monetary barrier, thus my statement.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[outerlimits]

Five rounds and a plug!

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'm a fan of 8+1.

I don't know why everyone is changing it all of a sudden and before you know it - we will all be running around with "Sir-Lance-a-Lot" jousting shotguns.

Unfortunately, my 21" will probably be sporting a 12+1 capacity at the Rockcastle shotgun match and 10+1 at all other matches not 8+1.

A shotgun with a 5' long tube is impractical...

A practical small arm should be able to be transported in a passenger vehicle without being disassembled to fit!

I have a 16 round tube that fits in my shoulder holster. What's not practical about that? Oh and none of the shooting we do is really that practical. Have you ever been on a combat mission, hunting trip, or SWAT raid and had to shoot a pistol 15 times, a shotgun 25 times and a rifle out to 400 yards from a swinging platform all in a 180 second time span? this sport is about solving shooting problems with purpose built guns and gear. Oh and Shooting as fast as possible, which is why I do it!

I started this thread because of the confusion I saw at Midwest this past weekend. One of my buddies shooting his first major match has an 8 round tube on his Benelli because we start 8 in the tube for empty chamber starts at our local matches. Now he gets to a major and he is one round light compared to everyone else on the squad that has 9-12 round tubes. We got him lined out on the ghost load after two stages. I know some of you old timers probably can't remember what you had for dinner last night but for those of us that aren't so seasoned we can remember what it was like trying to figure out all these weird different rules.

I think the biggest confusion is the difference between an unloaded gun being allowed 8 or 9 before the beep.

I personally like the 9 at the beep because let's face it loading shotguns sucks for most people. It's what keeps the average dude from wanting to shoot 3 gun a lot of times. That is also why I like the option of loading up a 12 round tube after the beep so you can load once and shoot it empty on most stages leaving less confusion and less stage time loading. I'd rather spend my time in the clock shooting not reloading.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[HoMiE]

If you don't have any restrictions isn't that pretty much open division?

What open is really about is optics and muzzle brakes and speed loaders/mag fed shotguns. We don't limit the rifle capacity in tac optics or limited so why with the shotgun. (at least you could argue that) I say it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pat

But we do have limits on handgun capacity. (Every match I'm aware of has 140mm or something similar for Tactical).

My own take is there should be limited rilfe and shotgun capacity, why call it limited if its not? There should be a place where equipment or capacity is not the advantage, where markmanship and practical ability is the challenge. I think the divisions have meshed or blended to much and people like the unlimited capacity of open but without the use of speedloaders or mags on shotguns. Tactical Optics is the blended open/limited divisions.

[StealthyBlagga]

...I started this thread because of the confusion I saw at Midwest this past weekend. One of my buddies shooting his first major match has an 8 round tube on his Benelli because we start 8 in the tube for empty chamber starts at our local matches. Now he gets to a major and he is one round light compared to everyone else on the squad that has 9-12 round tubes. We got him lined out on the ghost load after two stages. I know some of you old timers probably can't remember what you had for dinner last night but for those of us that aren't so seasoned we can remember what it was like trying to figure out all these weird different rules.

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

This is also why I always advise new shooters to "run what they brung" for the first few matches. Too many new 3-gunners want to rush out and buy the latest gear without the experience to know if it is right for them.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[Jesse Tischauser]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think another poll maybe in order.

Who likes to shoot shotgun more than load shotgun?

Who lines to load shotgun more than shoot shotgun?

[StealthyBlagga]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

You didn't have a problem with YOUR shotgun configuration did you? It sounds like you knew the rules, but declined to help your buddy out with the advice he could have really used BEFORE the match. If this sport is going to continue to grow, we all have a duty to share our collective experience with newbies from the moment they enter the sport so their learning curve is as steep and costless as possible.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[Chuck Anderson]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

Choice is the essence of a free market. Right now the market's preference is pretty clear - matches under IMA rules without capacity limit fill within days (SMM3G 2012 took less than 2 days to fill), whereas USPSA matches with capacity limit often do not fill.

I don't buy this argument at all. It completely ignores the fact that SMM3G and most other IMGA matches had the exact same 8+1 or 22" barrel limit for a very long time and filled the same way they do now. I seriously doubt that there was a group of people that didn't sign up because they could only load 8 in their shotgun tube.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

You didn't have a problem with YOUR shotgun configuration did you? It sounds like you knew the rules, but declined to help your buddy out with the advice he could have really used BEFORE the match. If this sport is going to continue to grow, we all have a duty to share our collective experience with newbies from the moment they enter the sport so their learning curve is as steep and costless as possible.

Let me tell you a little about my duty to new Shooters. I have my back up Stag 3G and a brand new Loki 3G that I loan out regularly. I have two Accurate Iron Benelli M1's with an entire set of backup Caddys, I also have a Glock 34 or 35 that gets loaned out to HELP new shooters. What I typically do with first timers is give them a 12 round tube and load the shotgun up to 12+1+1 and have them shoot against our 1 or 2 Open shooters so they don't have to worry about loading their shotgun on the clock. They dont come to win like me. They want to shoot and have fun while learning the game. Most of them don't even know the rules until after the match if even then. If they have fun and/or do well they come back. If they finish last and struggle they don't. My only goal is to get them to return.

I guess I need to start offering to meet new Shooters before the match so that I can read them the rules and take questions.

[chendersby]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

In an attempt get USPSA rules in line with non USPSA match rules I am proposing changing our 9 only limit to be in line with the majority of 3 gun matches. Our rules are usually viewed as being the ones that are broken. Just trying to fix them. Not suggesting changes to the majority.

[mike cyrwus]

8 round tubes are good choices for beginners and never a bad idea to think in terms of shoot 4, load 4, or shoot 8, load 8.

[chendersby]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

You didn't have a problem with YOUR shotgun configuration did you? It sounds like you knew the rules, but declined to help your buddy out with the advice he could have really used BEFORE the match. If this sport is going to continue to grow, we all have a duty to share our collective experience with newbies from the moment they enter the sport so their learning curve is as steep and costless as possible.

Let me tell you a little about my duty to new Shooters. I have my back up Stag 3G and a brand new Loki 3G that I loan out regularly. I have two Accurate Iron Benelli M1's with an entire set of backup Caddys, I also have a Glock 34 or 35 that gets loaned out to HELP new shooters. What I typically do with first timers is give them a 12 round tube and load the shotgun up to 12+1+1 and have them shoot against our 1 or 2 Open shooters so they don't have to worry about loading their shotgun on the clock. They dont come to win like me. They want to shoot and have fun while learning the game. Most of them don't even know the rules until after the match if even then. If they have fun and/or do well they come back. If they finish last and struggle they don't. My only goal is to get them to return.

I guess I need to start offering to meet new Shooters before the match so that I can read them the rules and take questions.

This is where USPSA has an advantage over local matches being run under "IMGA" rules or in many cases no rules only "this is how it's done at big matches we shoot" but nothing on paper rules. New shooter can go to our website and read the rules before showing up. This will be made easier by our new book, which is done and will be posted for comment soon!

[Jesse Tischauser]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

In an attempt get USPSA rules in line with non USPSA match rules I am proposing changing our 9 only limit to be in line with the majority of 3 gun matches. Our rules are usually viewed as being the ones that are broken. Just trying to fix them. Not suggesting changes to the majority.

Outstanding!!!

[MarkCO]

Choice is the essence of a free market. Right now the market's preference is pretty clear - matches under IMA rules without capacity limit fill within days (SMM3G 2012 took less than 2 days to fill), whereas USPSA matches with capacity limit often do not fill.

I don't buy this argument at all. It completely ignores the fact that SMM3G and most other IMGA matches had the exact same 8+1 or 22" barrel limit for a very long time and filled the same way they do now. I seriously doubt that there was a group of people that didn't sign up because they could only load 8 in their shotgun tube.

I think you misread that Chuck. I took the "Choice" to mean any opportunity to bash on the USPSA ruleset even if it makes no sense.

[MarkCO]

I guess I need to start offering to meet new Shooters before the match so that I can read them the rules and take questions.

Even that would not have worked at the last match...there were changes stage to stage.

[BillD]

An Old rule of 22" or under for AOL barrel mag was in place in some rules, when I started to buy equipment for 3gun But it was very difficult at the time to find a barrel under 24".

My knee jerk reaction to any rule add or change that limits equipment is NO

This pretty much sums it up for me. What we do NOT want is a rule that requires ROs to keep track of how many shells a shooter loads or shoots. The way we do it in IMA-SMM3G rules is a very pragmatic approach - start with 8+1, then do what you like after the beep.

so, exactly when does the RO count the shells to start with? If you have a long tube, the RO will have to count shots somewhere to make sure you didn't load 10+1 at the start, correct?

[MarkCO]

I voted my preference, however, when Chris E. asked me what I thought w.r.t. USPSA rules, I told him 8+1 at start and unlimited after the beep for exactly the reason he stated, to try and be more consistent across the major matches.

[StealthyBlagga]

An Old rule of 22" or under for AOL barrel mag was in place in some rules, when I started to buy equipment for 3gun But it was very difficult at the time to find a barrel under 24".

My knee jerk reaction to any rule add or change that limits equipment is NO

This pretty much sums it up for me. What we do NOT want is a rule that requires ROs to keep track of how many shells a shooter loads or shoots. The way we do it in IMA-SMM3G rules is a very pragmatic approach - start with 8+1, then do what you like after the beep.

so, exactly when does the RO count the shells to start with? If you have a long tube, the RO will have to count shots somewhere to make sure you didn't load 10+1 at the start, correct?

Denise explained it well earlier. It's not a big chore for the RO to count the rounds that are loaded during the MR step... it gets a LOT more challenging to keep track on the clock.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

This is where USPSA has an advantage over local matches being run under "IMGA" rules or in many cases no rules only "this is how it's done at big matches we shoot" but nothing on paper rules. New shooter can go to our website and read the rules before showing up. This will be made easier by our new book, which is done and will be posted for comment soon!

It will certainly be helpful if/when USPSA makes this rule change. However, as you point out, the written rules will still only say "8+1 at start". Even then, the idea of having a higher capacity magazine tube often does not occur to new shooters until after their first match, or when a more experienced shooter gives them good advice before they buy their shotgun. This kind of real world experience really belongs in a FAQ or "beginners guide to 3-gun" publication.

[BillD]

I've attended several (a couple dozen, maybe?) multi gun matches. I've never seen an RO count shells at the start. I've not attended majors.

[StealthyBlagga]

I've attended several (a couple dozen, maybe?) multi gun matches. I've never seen an RO count shells at the start. I've not attended majors.

At most of our matches, we pre-load the shotgun in a dedicated location under dedicated RO supervision - that RO should be counting the shells as they go in. The primary value of limiting start capacity to 9 shell is that most ROs only have 10 fingers

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga