40cal to 9mm Conversion barrels for Production

[Sean Gaines]

What advantage do you get using an aftermarket conversion barrel?? I noticed in the latest front sight magazine that John Amidon, said that its a no no for a production shooter to be able to put a 40 to 9mm conversion barrel in a .40cal. I have known about this rule, but reading it made me think, why does it really matter? What advantage does the shooter gain?

To me it seems that if you bought a 40cal glock for defensive purposes, and that is the only gun that you have, and you want to get into the sport, on a shoe string budget, all you would have to do is buy a conversion barrel for let say $150, and now he can shoot the game without buying alot of gear. Instead of having to buy a new gun, all the mags and accessories that go with the gun. I feel that this rule, has no effect on how the shooter perfoms in the match, and I feel this rule should be striken from the rule books. Thoughts anyone??

Edited May 4, 2012 by Sean Gaines

[Nik Habicht]

Simple thought: Let's stop modifying Production Division rules.....

You open that door, you never know what might enter or leave the building.....

[DWFAN]

I would be in favor of allowing them also. I can't think of a competitive advantage, or non-competitive advantage other than a good excuse to buy a new gun.

[Skydiver]

Didn't you just list an advantage there that a shooter gets into the sport cheaper?

Let's say that swapping calibers is legal... what will be the max weight for that gun at the chrono station? The weight of the original gun prior to the conversion, or the USPSA listed weight minus the weight of the original barrel plus the weight of the new barrel? Or should the shooter just make sure that the new barrel is still within the 2oz margin just like any other parts replacement?

Anyway, my understanding is that the general philosophy behind the ban is to prevent an arms race, as well as keep "prototypes" from being used in Production. It's interesting to note though that the 2008 rulebook disallows prototypes in production, but the 2010 reprinting doesn't have that line in there anymore.

If you were DNROI, how would you handle a situation where somebody stumbles on a magic combination that makes a gun that outclass the rest of the guns in the division? (For example, a gun has more of it's slide hollowed out to accommodate a .45 ACP barrel as opposed to the 9mm version of the same gun. So a shooter decides to buy the .45 version, and finds an aftermarket 9mm with the some OD as the .45 barrel. Now he has instant slide lightening plus a heavier barrel.) Do you just treat it as the genie is out of bottle and let it be? Do you institute a ban just on the specific combo?

[Sean Gaines]

quote name='Skydiver' timestamp='1336159564' post='1697656']

Didn't you just list an advantage there that a shooter gets into the sport cheaper?

But that is not an advantage on the playing field. I am all for saving money, arent you?

Let's say that swapping calibers is legal... what will be the max weight for that gun at the chrono station? The weight of the original gun prior to the conversion, or the USPSA listed weight minus the weight of the original barrel plus the weight of the new barrel? Or should the shooter just make sure that the new barrel is still within the 2oz margin just like any other parts replacement?

We already allow people in production to change out factory barrels for match grade barrels. that probably has more of an impact on that gun compared to the same gun with a factory barrel. Match grade barrel conversion to a 9mm from a .45, it would be heavier but in my opinion i don't think that will give you an advantage on the playing field. You still have to do your part.

Anyway, my understanding is that the general philosophy behind the ban is to prevent an arms race, as well as keep "prototypes" from being used in Production. It's interesting to note though that the 2008 rulebook disallows prototypes in production, but the 2010 reprinting doesn't have that line in there anymore.

so I guess prototype's are allowed, but this isn't a prototype, conversions have been around forever.

If you were DNROI, how would you handle a situation where somebody stumbles on a magic combination that makes a gun that outclass the rest of the guns in the division? (For example, a gun has more of it's slide hollowed out to accommodate a .45 ACP barrel as opposed to the 9mm version of the same gun. So a shooter decides to buy the .45 version, and finds an aftermarket 9mm with the some OD as the .45 barrel. Now he has instant slide lightening plus a heavier barrel.) Do you just treat it as the genie is out of bottle and let it be? Do you institute a ban just on the specific combo?

We are just talking about a barrel, I think weight is a non issue, if weight on gun was what won someone a championship, than everyone in limeted and open would be adding a bunch of weight to their guns.

My whole point of my post is that i don't think we should restrict people with limited means from getting into the sport. Are there going to be gamers out there? sure there will be, there already here. But we are just talking about a barrel. If that barrel can make bullets curve into the A zone, that would be an advantage. But nobody's going to make that. its still up to the shooter to execute. Its the indian not the bow. I personally think its a silly rule.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Sean Gaines

[Thomas H]

What advantage do you get using an aftermarket conversion barrel?? I noticed in the latest front sight magazine that John Amidon, said that its a no no for a production shooter to be able to put a 40 to 9mm conversion barrel in a .40cal. I have known about this rule, but reading it made me think, why does it really matter? What advantage does the shooter gain?

To me it seems that if you bought a 40cal glock for defensive purposes, and that is the only gun that you have, and you want to get into the sport, on a shoe string budget, all you would have to do is buy a conversion barrel for let say $150, and now he can shoot the game without buying alot of gear. Instead of having to buy a new gun, all the mags and accessories that go with the gun. I feel that this rule, has no effect on how the shooter perfoms in the match, and I feel this rule should be striken from the rule books. Thoughts anyone??

Instead of all that, why not just shoot the .40? Lots of people these days even say that .40 Minor is even easier to shoot than 9mm. Since you are talking about a conversion barrel for 9mm, you must be talking about production---so why change anything about your gun?

Why is there any need for a conversion in the first place?

I realize you are setting up a hypothetical reason for using a conversion barrel, but "why do it in the first place" is what immediately occurred to me.

[Chills1994]

http://www.briley.com/glockbarrels-manycalibersandmodels.aspx

[Sean Gaines]

What advantage do you get using an aftermarket conversion barrel?? I noticed in the latest front sight magazine that John Amidon, said that its a no no for a production shooter to be able to put a 40 to 9mm conversion barrel in a .40cal. I have known about this rule, but reading it made me think, why does it really matter? What advantage does the shooter gain?

To me it seems that if you bought a 40cal glock for defensive purposes, and that is the only gun that you have, and you want to get into the sport, on a shoe string budget, all you would have to do is buy a conversion barrel for let say $150, and now he can shoot the game without buying alot of gear. Instead of having to buy a new gun, all the mags and accessories that go with the gun. I feel that this rule, has no effect on how the shooter perfoms in the match, and I feel this rule should be striken from the rule books. Thoughts anyone??

Instead of all that, why not just shoot the .40? Lots of people these days even say that .40 Minor is even easier to shoot than 9mm. Since you are talking about a conversion barrel for 9mm, you must be talking about production---so why change anything about your gun?

Why is there any need for a conversion in the first place?

I realize you are setting up a hypothetical reason for using a conversion barrel, but "why do it in the first place" is what immediately occurred to me.

I agree you could just shoot .40cal, it cost a little more. But the rub is there is a law against you taking a 40 cal glock, and turning it into a 9mm for $150 bucks and shooting production with it. Its not a "legal" gun. i just think its a silly rule.

[Avezorak]

I disagree with the rule because I see no sense in it. Never have seen any sense in it and havent heard a good excuse for not allowing it yet.

On the other hand, if its just for a couple matches to see if you want to play or not. Shoot your .40 in L10, eat the extra 10 bucks in ammo costs and decide if you wanna keep playing or not.

Really, if you are gonna play this game, chances are you are gonna buy something for the division you want to shoot.

[GrumpyOne]

To me, it's simple enough. A G35 is an approved gun. A G35 is a 40 S&W. A G35 with a 9mm barrel is not an approved gun. The slide would still say G35, but Glock never made a G35 in 9mm, so it is a prototype, and not on the approved list.

While I freely admit, there isn't any real difference between the G34 and the G35 with the 9mm conversion barrel, except that little stamp on the slide, there are alot more guns out there that changing things around and allowing things like that would and could be game changers.....

[kevinj308]

I'm not a huge fan of the rule. But its the rule.

I bought a Glock 35 and conversion barrel. I was already reloading for 9mm, had a significant stock of components, and didn't have the ability to buy a worthwhile amount of .40 components. That $150 for the barrel wouldn't have gotten me much. And I sold the 9mm pistol I was shooting to get the Glock. So now I've got a 3gun pistol, and the local outlaw action pistol. If I shoot USPSA I run SS.

I only say all that to say that I'm an example of someone who might shoot production with a barrel conversion if it were allowed.

I really don't think it's a big deal either way. I can't envision there being any difference in the outcome of a match if it were allowed, but I also can't envision someone not shooting a USPSA match because they can't convert their gun. If you want to shoot a match you figure something out within the rules and go shoot.

Kevin

[Sean Gaines]

To me, it's simple enough. A G35 is an approved gun. A G35 is a 40 S&W. A G35 with a 9mm barrel is not an approved gun. The slide would still say G35, but Glock never made a G35 in 9mm, so it is a prototype, and not on the approved list.

While I freely admit, there isn't any real difference between the G34 and the G35 with the 9mm conversion barrel, except that little stamp on the slide, there are alot more guns out there that changing things around and allowing things like that would and could be game changers.....

Name some guns that would give you an advantage changing the barrel out to a 9mm? With the glock, you could essentially shoot 3 divisions with one gun and 2 barrels. you must think the guy/gal getting out of college, or the dad with his junior shooter.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Sean Gaines

[GrumpyOne]

To me, it's simple enough. A G35 is an approved gun. A G35 is a 40 S&W. A G35 with a 9mm barrel is not an approved gun. The slide would still say G35, but Glock never made a G35 in 9mm, so it is a prototype, and not on the approved list.

While I freely admit, there isn't any real difference between the G34 and the G35 with the 9mm conversion barrel, except that little stamp on the slide, there are alot more guns out there that changing things around and allowing things like that would and could be game changers.....

Name some guns that would give you an advantage changing the barrel out to a 9mm? With the glock, you could essentially shoot 3 divisions with one gun and 2 barrels. you must think the guy/gal getting out of college, or the dad with his junior shooter.

There are several hundred guns on the approved guns list. I haven't shot all of them, Hell, I haven't even seen all of them. I was using the Glock series as an example, as they are one of the most prolific in the sport. I'm sure that somewhere on the approved gun list, that there is a combination that will give someone a competitive advantage.

[Chills1994]

Technically speaking... You can shoot the same gun with original barrel in 4 divisions. Technically speaking...

I started out in Production with a Beretta 96 in .40. I just reloaded my 180 grainers down to about 137 PF.

I think it felt better than 9mm at 130ish PF.

now i shoot the Beretta 92 in 9mm for Limited minor. mainly because i don't like to reload and i can stuff 20 rounds into the mags.

If people are serious enough, they'll:

A. Reload .40 minor

B. Shoot limited or L10 at . 40 major (and buy the extended mag base pads)

C. Both A and B

[Nik Habicht]

you must think the guy/gal getting out of college, or the dad with his junior shooter.

No, I don't. I actually need to think about ALL competitors.....

[Nik Habicht]

To me, it's simple enough. A G35 is an approved gun. A G35 is a 40 S&W. A G35 with a 9mm barrel is not an approved gun. The slide would still say G35, but Glock never made a G35 in 9mm, so it is a prototype, and not on the approved list.

While I freely admit, there isn't any real difference between the G34 and the G35 with the 9mm conversion barrel, except that little stamp on the slide, there are alot more guns out there that changing things around and allowing things like that would and could be game changers.....

I'm not thrilled with the rule, but I can't dismiss the prototype language either.....

The .40 can be downloaded to be pretty soft -- it will, whether in reloads or factory ammo cost a little more to run.....

If that price difference is enough to keep someone from competing, that person would not hang around for long in any event -- this sport requires too much commitment, for those who are easily dissuaded....

Rare is the member who does this for a decade or longer, actively.....

[waktasz]

For Production I think it makes sense. For Limited, it's ridiculous. You can put any barrel you want in a 2011 but you can't run a conversion barrel in a Glock?

I don't really care either way because I have no plans to do that but it's still silly.

[Sean Gaines]

To me, it's simple enough. A G35 is an approved gun. A G35 is a 40 S&W. A G35 with a 9mm barrel is not an approved gun. The slide would still say G35, but Glock never made a G35 in 9mm, so it is a prototype, and not on the approved list.

While I freely admit, there isn't any real difference between the G34 and the G35 with the 9mm conversion barrel, except that little stamp on the slide, there are alot more guns out there that changing things around and allowing things like that would and could be game changers.....

Name some guns that would give you an advantage changing the barrel out to a 9mm? With the glock, you could essentially shoot 3 divisions with one gun and 2 barrels. you must think the guy/gal getting out of college, or the dad with his junior shooter.

There are several hundred guns on the approved guns list. I haven't shot all of them, Hell, I haven't even seen all of them. I was using the Glock series as an example, as they are one of the most prolific in the sport. I'm sure that somewhere on the approved gun list, that there is a combination that will give someone a competitive advantage.

Competitive advantage like the barrel is going to make you shoot more alphas, you think?? Sure,there are some barrels that are more accurate than others, but we allow people to change their factory barrels for match grade type barrels already. So what production legal gun would give a competitor an advantage in production division from just changing the barrel to a 9mm? I can't think of one that would be so advantagous or revolutionary as to give a competitor an unfair advantage. it wouldn't be as revolutionary as lets say putting a red dot scope on your gun, while everyone shoots iron sights, like Barnhart did at the Nationals one year, and spanked everyone.

[Skydiver]

23.1 After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard.

SLIDES: Current rules remain in effect – You may replace the slide with an OEM or aftermarket slide which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original slide for that model of gun.

BARRELS: Current rules remain in effect - you may replace the barrel with an OEM or aftermarket barrel which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original barrel for that model of gun.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

For purposes of this interpretation, a barrel within +/- 0.1" of OEM is "the same length".

When you say that the rule should be "striken (sic) from the books", do you mean strike all of D4.23.1, or just the the words in blue, or just the word "caliber"?

Although I don't really favor a rule change, I can live with just the word "caliber" being deleted. I wouldn't not be happy with all of 23.1 being removed because that would then mean no aftermarket slides or barrels at all.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Skydiver

[Sean Gaines]

23.1 After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard.

SLIDES: Current rules remain in effect – You may replace the slide with an OEM or aftermarket slide which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original slide for that model of gun.

BARRELS: Current rules remain in effect - you may replace the barrel with an OEM or aftermarket barrel which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original barrel for that model of gun.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

For purposes of this interpretation, a barrel within +/- 0.1" of OEM is "the same length".

When you say that the rule should be "striken (sic) from the books", do you mean strike all of D4.23.1, or just the the words in blue, or just the word "caliber"?

Although I don't really favor a rule change, I can live with just the word "caliber" being deleted. I wouldn't not be happy with all of 23.1 being removed because that would then mean no aftermarket slides or barrels at all.

I would probably re word it to say something on the lines of all aftermarket barrels are acceptable except for hybrid/ribbed barrels and barrels which require alteration to the slide, barrel must be the same legnth as the original factory barrel. +/-.1"

That would allow reduced caliber conversion barrels. I left out profile on purpose, because one person might think a bull barrel may help them and some may think that a thinner lighter barrel would work for them. Either way this part of the barrel will be naturally gamed, but in my oppinion, I don't believe it will give that shooter a significant advantage. Everyone is different in tastes, in regards to their barrels.

[Skydiver]

23.1 After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard.

SLIDES: Current rules remain in effect – You may replace the slide with an OEM or aftermarket slide which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original slide for that model of gun.

BARRELS: Current rules remain in effect - you may replace the barrel with an OEM or aftermarket barrel which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original barrel for that model of gun.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

For purposes of this interpretation, a barrel within +/- 0.1" of OEM is "the same length".

When you say that the rule should be "striken (sic) from the books", do you mean strike all of D4.23.1, or just the the words in blue, or just the word "caliber"?

Although I don't really favor a rule change, I can live with just the word "caliber" being deleted. I wouldn't not be happy with all of 23.1 being removed because that would then mean no aftermarket slides or barrels at all.

I would probably re word it to say something on the lines of all aftermarket barrels are acceptable except for hybrid/ribbed barrels and barrels which require alteration to the slide, barrel must be the same legnth as the original factory barrel. +/-.1"

That would allow reduced caliber conversion barrels. I left out profile on purpose, because one person might think a bull barrel may help them and some may think that a thinner lighter barrel would work for them. Either way this part of the barrel will be naturally gamed, but in my oppinion, I don't believe it will give that shooter a significant advantage. Everyone is different in tastes, in regards to their barrels.

Sounds quite well thought out. I recommend sending the suggestion to your AD and/or USPSA.

[splashdown]

I have the following Glock barrels: Factory G19, Factory G35, Factory G24C, Barsto G35, KKM G24, and EFK G35-9mm conversion.

All 40 cal barrels measure 0.589" OD. The 9mm G19 barrel measures 0.570" OD.

The wall thickness on the 40 barrels is 0.0945" assuming a .400" ID.

The wall thickness on the G35 40 to 9 conversion barrel is 0.117" assuming a .355" ID.

The conversion barrel is heavier, adding static weight to the front of the gun. Is it significant? Probably not, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Do we want more grey areas, or do we want it to be black and white? I think I know where "Skydiver" comes down on this one (Mr. Black and White).

[Chills1994]

Doesn't Lone Wolf make a lot of after market Glock barrels?

If this passes, man! Lone Wolf's market share is gonna be huge!

[Flexmoney]

Effectively, we are talking about a bull barrel.

[Sean Gaines]

I have the following Glock barrels: Factory G19, Factory G35, Factory G24C, Barsto G35, KKM G24, and EFK G35-9mm conversion.

All 40 cal barrels measure 0.589" OD. The 9mm G19 barrel measures 0.570" OD.

The wall thickness on the 40 barrels is 0.0945" assuming a .400" ID.

The wall thickness on the G35 40 to 9 conversion barrel is 0.117" assuming a .355" ID.

The conversion barrel is heavier, adding static weight to the front of the gun. Is it significant? Probably not, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Do we want more grey areas, or do we want it to be black and white? I think I know where "Skydiver" comes down on this one (Mr. Black and White).

Yes

I don't think there is a competitive advantage using an 40 to 9mm conversion barrel. yes, the barrel would essentially be considered a bull barrel, but is that bull barrel going to make you shoot more "A's"?? I don't think so. I don't think that there is enough evidence to prove that this change would give a competitior a significant advantage, and should be reworded and taken out of the rule book.

Lets look at something that is "approved" that will enhance your performance: ie: Trigger jobs on production guns. I believe that can greatly enhance your shooting performance, compared to a bone stock trigger on some guns. Adjustable sights, can greatly enhance your shooting performance over factory sights, on some guns. All of these are allowed. Some people will feel that a bull barrel will be an advantage. I personally am not a fan of bull barrels, some people see that as an advantage, I see it as added weight, to transition from target to target.

I like to think of uspsa, as the trend setters since we put more rounds down range with a pistol, than any other sports combined, and we know what works and what doesn't. So if there was a combination where a conversion barrel gave you a significant advantage, than awesome! that will just open the door for innovation, which should be encouraged, not disallowed. Maybe major manufactures will pick up on it and follow suit. But I can not think of a gun were reduced barrel conversion would give a competitor a significant advantage. I like the fact that someone can goto a gun show and buy a glock 35, and buy a 9mm conversion barrel and shoot production, limited, limited 10, and if he buys another barrel and some other accessories, he could essentially run the same frame and shoot open. What is wrong with that? lets say he spends $600 on the gun and $150 on each barrel, maybe a magwell and a disconector, and does the polishing himself. he can save thousands of dollars just using one gun. Maybe someone can come up with a gun on the approved uspsa list that would give someone a significant advantage, adding a reduced caliber conversion to that gun. If no one can come up with a gun, I think we should submit this thread to John Amidon, to get his oppinion, before they put the new limited rules in place.