WHEN TARGETS ATTACK.......back........

[ericm]

As I walked by a car at the range today, I involuntarily shuddered at the sight of a bunch of bowling pins in the trunk, obviously shot, with strings tied on for hanging. Why? 'Cause I've been "shot" by quite a few bowling pins over the years. Ricochets, whole lead slugs coming straight back from the pin, etc.

So let's start this thread on UNSAFE TARGETS or UNSAFE TARGET PRESENTATIONS for all match directors, stage designers, plinkers, etc. to avoid.

My experience, in no particular order:

Bowling Pins: (see above), use steel bowling pin silouhettes on a proper plate rack, not real pins. I HAVE seen bowling pins used at some 3-gun matches, usually start-up outfits, 50 yards w/ rifle one time.....not good!

Steel plates with a pronounced lip or edge on the bottom (usually the base plate): these things spit lead and jacket fragments back at the shooter with boring regularity. I've found it best to hang such plates from that base plate edge by hanging them on the stand base plate. The plate is then sloped down and back and bullet fragments are directed down and back.

Plastic drums used to conceal targets (drum downrange by target): you haven't stared death in the face until you put a slug into a drum and listened to it spin 'round and 'round INSIDE THE DRUM, NOT KNOWING WHERE OR WHEN IT WILL BURST THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE DRUM (and I've SEEN them come out and I've been LUCKY!!) DON'T DO IT!!!!

Badly pocked faces of steel targets of any kind: get rid of it, it ain't worth it. I've seen fragments come straight back from 50 meter mild steel "practice gongs" at the metallic silouhette range many times. These things look like the lunar surface.

Shooting steel too close with a particular firearm: I think USPSA has something in their minimum steel distances depending on firearm.

We always used 50 yards min for shotgun slugs on steel (ever seen the "chocolate kiss" that comes back from a slug strike?), 10 yards minimum for pistol and shotgun shot (if the plates aren't spitting frags back; see above) and 100 yards for rifle (it's just too hard on steel any closer).

Anyone else wish to weigh in for posterity?

ericm

[Dillon b]

I have had a few jacket fragments in my arm due to cheap steel. with an open gun those things are pretty fast even on the way back at you.

[Bryan 45]

Eric, thanks for sharing these thoughts. It's great when guys whom have seen and done it help those of us who haven't yet.

[Dan Sierpina]

I've pulled a hunk of bullet jacket out of my knuckle at one match. That was a classifier stage, the gun was open, bullet JHP. I have seen a slug bounce back from a 50 yard plate, and end up in the shooter's hand, at the Masters a long time ago.

The barrel doesn't suprise me.

Bryan, I'm surprised you haven't encountered any of this, considering your RO experience.

[Graham Smith]

Actually, we've had this discussion in depth at my club. A couple long term shooters put a lot of the "dangerous target" stories into the "s#!t happens" category.

But they also acknowledge that years ago before the rules changed, steel was often closer. It was also mild steel and most people where shooting lead and lead fragments would fly everywhere.

As to barrels, I've seen the spinning bullets and at least two people I know have been hit with them when they came out and have said that there is so little energy in them when they exit that they are virtually harmless.

[Tizzo]

Plastic drums used to conceal targets (drum downrange by target): you haven't stared death in the face until you put a slug into a drum and listened to it spin 'round and 'round INSIDE THE DRUM, NOT KNOWING WHERE OR WHEN IT WILL BURST THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE DRUM (and I've SEEN them come out and I've been LUCKY!!) DON'T DO IT!!!!

ericm

As to barrels, I've seen the spinning bullets and at least two people I know have been hit with them when they came out and have said that there is so little energy in them when they exit that they are virtually harmless.

I was curious on the comment about the barrels. At my club a few stages are almost exclusively set up with barrels. We hear the zings regularly.

So how dangerous are barrels really?

[landshark45]

Iv seen many guys slip a 9mm or 45 slug in a barrel close & far (still under 30yds) they make a terrific whirling noise for 5-10 sec. Iv never seen or heard of one exiting & I don't thing there would be enough energy to cause harm.

If it had enough energy to exit that would happen on the first hit inside the barrel if a complete pass through didn't happen first. That sound we hear is energy loss.

[Onagoth]

Badly pocked faces of steel targets of any kind: get rid of it, it ain't worth it. I've seen fragments come straight back from 50 meter mild steel "practice gongs" at the metallic silouhette range many times. These things look like the lunar surface.

Shooting steel too close with a particular firearm: ericm

These are the most dangerous in my opinion. I've been hit many times (nothing severe) because of steel targets with craters or pock marks. When the surface of the steel deteriorates to that point, its time to let it go.

Being from Ontario, we have minimum engagement distances for steel and are regulated by a provincial/state authority. Handgun, shotgun is no less than 10m. Rifle no less than 50m. At our club, rifle is at a minimum 75m, but usually 100m to save the steel.

Slugs are a bit of a grey area, but our club sets these up at 50m or more.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Onagoth

[Griz]

In my experience, steel is safe at very close ranges if it is flat. If it is cratered, there is no safe distance.

[bigbrowndog]

you have to hit steel and bowling pins, with a big slug if you want to put it down, cause when its wounded they'll charge in a heartbeat, and then only a big african caliber will take them down reliably, i prefer a double rifle no smaller than 450 Nitro Express, but the 416's have a good reputation also and they penetrate like "a hot knife thru butta" Go after them with a smaller marginal caliber and you'll regret it!!!

mr ericm

Trapr

[assaulter]

I had a chunk of lead come back off a cratered target and hit me right in the "tip"! Yeah, that tip. NEVER AGAIN! I can't afford to lose another inch.

[ericm]

WOW......just WOW......

I guess I just never realized how SAFE it is to shoot bullets into those plastic drums.

I'll go away now, and let others tell glorious stories of how safe plastic barrels with spinning bullets inside really are....

JESUS CHRIST

ericm

[Alaskapopo]

Whats wrong with bowling pins. I have used them a lot with shotgun slugs and with pistols in several matches with no problems. With rifles they did not work so well because many of the bullets zipped through them and did not knock the pin over.

Pat

Edited May 5, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[ericm]

Pat....just search on "bowling pins as targets unsafe?"

......and a last parable for everyone and I'm done.

PARABLE:

I play with rattlesnakes. I have done so for many years, and have never been bitten. I only know a couple of guys that have been bitten and it was no big deal, one of them was only a dry bite.

Therefore, I conclude that it is perfectly safe for anyone to play with rattlesnakes, and probably, the more inexperienced the person is, the safer it is to play with them.

I will continue to play with rattlesnakes because NO ONE can convince me that it is unsafe.

Oh, by the way, can someone tell me why my horse is listless and the side of his nose is swollen up like a softball?

ericm

Edited May 5, 2012 by ericm

[kurtm]

Whaddya Whaddya Whaddya....Barrels are perfectly safe! It,s what comes out of them that might be detrimental to life and limb. Great example is a blue barrel hit with a 12 gage slug at about 25 yards, slug went in "zinged" around a few times came out and went THROUGH the door of a prop car and burrowed into the seat. Now I know that it is perfectly safe because someone told me "if they ever come out they have no energy left", and after all the car was a cheapy Fiat at the First Euro Shotgun Championships in Tierni Italy, but it did cause them to change out the barrel for a wooden wall section....what a bunch of whimps!

The most common self inflicted injury when "junk shooting" according to the AMA statistics is caused by shooting old water heaters...same concept I'm told.

Now outside of seeing the slug hole in the car, and being the first one to point it out t the danger of the blue barrel to R.M. in Tierni. This is the most dramatic example I have for targets attacking.

I was out hunting with a friend, and around 45 yards away a nice little doe stepped out slightly up hill from us. My friend hauled up and hit her high in the chest, just behind the shoulder with a 170 grain Silvertip 30-30 round. We herd the "thud" and at the same time we heard somrething go buzzing by between us and hit the ground and throw up a bunch od dust. The Deer dropped, and upon examination there was an entrance wound and an exit wound.....ON THE SAME SIDE! The bullet went in hit a rib and curved around it and came back out the same side.....kind of like a blue barrel, only in this case it was a "filled brown barrel".

[Smoky Bear]

So bouncing around a bowling pin with a m-14 is bad?

[kurtm]

Only after a Maitai party!

[landshark45]

Check your barrels for previous holes and the throw back scenario won't happen.

Just check your barrels on set up & there won't be an issue.

Now shooting over barrels & clipping the rim may send bullets over the berm.

[Big Bore]

I carried a piece of a 9mm jacket in my left hand for 18 years before it became infected and had to be removed. It came off of a piece of steel lying in a old mine dump in Montana.

Been hit many times with small stuff and bled a few times from others. I was glad I had my glasses on once when I was hit by a OO buck shot that splattered off of a MGM spinner.