uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 So my PC, tree huggin', greenie, enviro-friendly, 'let's all just get along' California blood, was thinking this weekend of a new match format wherein folks could shoot the guns they have, still conform to the principles of DVC, but me much more spectator and non-shooting sponsor friendly. The idea is to use Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup) tombstone targets, with the concentric rings equating to added time. Major calibers get less time added then minor. 9mm is okay for Major in Open but not in Limited. There's Production and L10, but L10 if a 1911 variant is used then they are singlestack only. Scoring is time plus penalties. And, to ensure that accuracy is valued, the penalties will be substantial enough to make folks slow down a smidge. No classes, as I think they're stupid. However, all tag categories (including Military) will be acknowledged. Courses of fire are virtually identical to USPSA/IPSC matches. Whatcha think? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 It's kinda like what they do for the GSSF matches. The GSSF matches usually get huge turnouts, over 200 people over 2 days. I would say most of these people don't shoot their guns that much during the year. I feel your pain. Do you need a hug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Sounds fun. Lets shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 So you want to have an IDPA match with different targets and no lame rules? Why would it be any more spectator friendly? Watching shooting can be pretty boring, even if you know what is going on. Reactive targets (steel) are more fun to watch get knocked down than paper targets, so if you made the match all steel and eliminated the paper targets I think you would get closer to what you are going for, then you don't have to worry about scoring either, it is just time and misses. I think the simpler you keep it the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 but be much more spectator and non-shooting sponsor friendly. not sure i agree that it would be more spectator and non-shooting sponsor friendly. its not the targets that antis object to...its the GUNS! i think gssf matches are popular because theyre so easy for beginners...just stand and shoot. plus, even beginners can win guns or $$. i shot gssf for 2 years (along with steel matches...also stand and shoot) before i got into uspsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 D, C, & probably B class shooters (at the very least) would stay away in droves due to no "stupid" class system, even though you would keep all the stupid tag categories. I do support Junior, Senior and Super Senior categories as an effort to attract the youngsters and retain the oldsters, but the rest is crap. I see that once again L-10 has been screwed with. I hope you at least shoot in that division. Sounds like you just want to ruin USPSA by turning into IDPA. We could even badmouth ourselves in the rulebook. May as well use the IDPA target and have the ROs tell us exactly how they want the stage run. Sorry to sound so rude, but you did ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Reactive targets (steel) are more fun to watch get knocked down than paper targets... Agreed. In a perfect world, I would like to revive the old Smith & Wesson Pro-Am. It was easy, fast and fun. All steel and everyone ran with 10 rounds max. and limited guns. I think what ‘killed’ it was that not every club has that much steel and thus paper targets should be used to minimize cost impact to clubs wanting to put on this style of match. After all, sticks and stands are cheap. Why would it be any more spectator friendly? Time plus penalties is much more spectator friendly than Comstock, as one can immediately identify who is ahead of who, once penalties are accessed…immediately. This is good for the spectator as Shooter A that ran it in 10 seconds is ahead of Shooter B that ran it in 10 seconds + 2 seconds in penalties. Under Comstock (which partially spurred this thought) you cannot determine the stage winner, or who is ahead of who, until either everyone has shot the stage, or go through an additional calculation of hit factor if only among friends/fellow competitors. So you want to have an IDPA match with different targets and no lame rules? Definitely not. It's still an IPSC-ish match. With Comstock out of the picture, round count among stages is a non-issue other than for match time management rather than "balance" amongst stages. Keep the comments coming. This is fun! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 but the rest is crap. Gosh, I thought acknowledging women, LE and Military would be a good thing. D, C, & probably B class shooters (at the very least) would stay away in droves IPSC doesn't have classes and they do alright. I don't like the classes because it puts a value on mediocrity and sandbagging. With no classes (like say Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, etc.) it puts what's important to the forefront...overall finish. I see that once again L-10 has been screwed with. I hope you at least shoot in that division. I do shoot the division, and hardly think that I'm the first person to reach the idea of making it SS only. The idea is for an IDPA shooter to come in and compete evenly as well as allow for minimal investment to be competitive. Despite my own argument of SS guys just need to quit whining and practice reloads more, the fact is that hi-cap frames can reload much easier than SS frames. This is a means to balance this. Sounds like you just want to ruin USPSA by turning into IDPA. We could even badmouth ourselves in the rulebook. May as well use the IDPA target and have the ROs tell us exactly how they want the stage run. Hardly. Open and Limited are still in and all the gadgets, bells and whistles are encouraged. The courses are identical to USPSA/IPSC courses of fire, but the point of the target change was to eliminate the 'humanoid' shape as MANY non-shooting sponsors have declined to or removed their money from our sport for non-shooting marketing reasons. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 back in the early 90's, the guys who had the steel challenge (don hamilton was one) did a match for a couple years called the trophy challenge...they used tombstone targets and time plus scoring, with a ton of steel, and no power factor...the match was an absolute blast to shoot. put it on rich, and i'll be there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 D, C, & probably B class shooters (at the very least) would stay away in droves IPSC doesn't have classes and they do alright. I don't like the classes because it puts a value on mediocrity and sandbagging. With no classes (like say Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, etc.) it puts what's important to the forefront...overall finish. Sorry, IPSC does have classes now "due to popular demand".. check it out on www.IPSC.org. I think the goals of 'slowing people down a smidge' and 'spectator frendly' are counter to each other. Spectators like lots of fast shooting. Steel good. Shoot fast, fall down. Accuracy is boring to spectators. You can instantly (with a telescope) tell who's ahead of who in a Bullseye match too. Last I checked, there weren't hordes of spectators for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Didn't know IPSC adopted classes. Figured it was still just the US and a handful of other countries. Oh well. Steel Challenge still does alright. The goal of slowing people down was for accuracy. I doubt you stand and shoot and go for doubles now and in no way would this be the case. Think a little bit (not you personally, but anyone thinking that this is the idea). Whatever the diameter is of the X-Ring on the tombstone is your A-zone. My statement of 'slowing people down a smidge' was easily light hearted and clearly meant to not deemphasize accuracy as some time plus penalty matches TEND to do. Again, all steel would be ideal but not practical economically. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 D, C, & probably B class shooters (at the very least) would stay away in droves due to no "stupid" class system, even though you would keep all the stupid tag categories. I wonder if this is true. As someone who's been all of these in recent memory, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to me. I'm building a collection of Class trophies and it wouldn't change anything if they weren't there. I look at the overall results (and cause I shoot Open, the combined is the most interesting) and it's my position on this list that matters much more than anything to do with class. Personally, while I'm a D, C, B, A, M class shooter, I regard that as evidence that I need to work more to get to GM . And if I were to be a GM, then it would still be my position on the overall list that mattered. I wonder whether JDF's view is the majority or if that's closer to mind. Seems like we can't even agree on the definition of "ideal", imagine that Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Gosh, I thought acknowledging women, LE and Military would be a good thing. Can someone explain the LE and Military catagories to me? I don't understand why a sport seperates out a couple of occupations and gives them their own category. There's no CCW holders category and they use weapons in a different way to the "general populous". There's no fire fighters catagory and they are an occupation that put their life on the line for the rest of us. F-16 pilots don't make much use of hand guns but they qualify for Military. I have great respect for people who choose to serve in LE and the Military (and the School system and a bunch of other things) so this is not intended to denigrate such people in any way. I just genuinely don't understand why a sport rewards them seperately. Is there a current rational or is it an historical artifact? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 The goal of slowing people down was for accuracy. I doubt you stand and shoot and go for doubles now and in no way would this be the case. Think a little bit (not you personally, but anyone thinking that this is the idea). Whatever the diameter is of the X-Ring on the tombstone is your A-zone. My statement of 'slowing people down a smidge' was easily light hearted and clearly meant to not deemphasize accuracy as some time plus penalty matches TEND to do. I'm confused. Are you wanting even more accuracy? Not even Bianchi uses only the X-ring as the top scoring zone. Unless the time penalties are tiny or targets super-close it'll be slow as heck. SC may do OK w/o classes because results are directly comparable year to year-- as in "Last year I shot 83.25, this year I'm going for 75'. Without fixed courses, this doesn't happen, there are no 'world records', 'personal bests' and such things that spectators might like. I'm just pointing out that shooter-friendly and spectator-friendly can directly conflict at times. I like the idea in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 shred, I get what you're saying. Makes sense. This whole idea was (literally) sketched on a cocktail napkin while going to GA this weekend. The 10-ring would be much better as the A-zone. Heck, in lieu of our current B zone as a tie breaker, we can use the X-ring. I like the idea in general. I figure that you (and most) would. Just trying to see if I can de-bug before the first shot. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 You'll also want to check into the Texas Paper & Iron match-- it's fixed COFs, shot on steel and Bianchi targets, with time-plus scoring. It's one of the oldest continuous matches in the country, though no longer the 'place to be' like it used to be. The early results read like a whos-who of IPSC & Steel. There was also a short-lived ISA in the early 90s (not the Steel Challenge ISSA folks, Yank Price, IIRC) that was designed for media-friendliness-- time + on steel and paper rectangle targets (round scoring zones similar to the D-1 minus the X-- somehwhere around here I probably still have some). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 You'll also want to check into the Texas Paper & Iron match Dude, this match is AWESOME! The only hard part was remembering P & I rules on some of the stages. As a side note, if you haven't ever attended this match it is a must! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 You'll also want to check into the Texas Paper & Iron match Dude, this match is AWESOME! The only hard part was remembering P & I rules on some of the stages. As a side note, if you haven't ever attended this match it is a must! Rich Yeah, I won A-class there a few years ago I totally agree it's a must-do. The 22 rifle field course side-match is always a hoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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