Learning curve?

[michael_aos]

Mike,

Please take this in the helpful manner it is intended. If you can't shoot slow, you can't shoot fast!

In other words, you need to be able to line up the sights and hit a 6" plate at 25 yards consistantly. When you can, go faster. When you find you can't hit it, slow down just a bit. Very few people can miss fast enough to win. ANd they can only do it if the other guy in their class does worse!

If you are shooting as many rounds as you say, you have one or more problems to overcome. Is yor gun sighted in? Can you carefully aim at a plate and hit it every time? Can you group 1-2" at 15-25 yards? Place 20 rounds on a 3" circle at taht distance? If  not you need to ether sight in or practice till you can, no point in running and trying to burn a course down till you can hit reliable what you are shooting at.

Jim Norman

Before I discovered IPSC, I was shooting at smaller targets and longer distances.

Then I started spending more time on larger targets, closer (A-zone at 10yds).

I was practicing on the plate-rack at ~15yds on Monday. I had a few strings where I shot 5 for 5, then kept missing the 6th. Reminds me of "choking" on the 8-ball in billiards (which used to be a problem for me).

I also had strings where I couldn't hit the first plate in 10 shots!

It's not the sights. The trigger-pull is excessive, but it breaks crisply. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. This Hi-Power does get really hot during a range-session, but I don't think that's affecting accuracy.

I shot very few "mikes" this last match. Less than any of the previous ones.

At this point I don't see the benefit of practicing 6" plates at 25yds or grouping 3" at 25yds when that's not what I'd actually see in a match. Most small targets are closer to 10yds.

That's not to say you're wrong -- Karate Kid comes to mind...wax on...wax off....

It just doesn't make sense to me right now.

Mike

[dv8]

If I had that problem, I'd probably put a 1 inch white paster in the center of an IPSC target at say 7 yards and relatively fast shoot full magazine. See if there is a pattern. If so, see if your trigger control may be the cause. You might have perfect trigger control when shooting slowly, but when you are shooting on time - it's a different story.

Added: The point is to simulate match stress while practicing - this can reveal a lot of stuff.

[michael_aos]

If I had that problem, I'd probably put a 1 inch white paster in the center of an IPSC target at say 7 yards and relatively fast shoot full magazine. See if there is a pattern. If so, see if your trigger control may be the cause. You might have perfect trigger control when shooting slowly, but when you are shooting on time - it's a different story.

Added: The point is to simulate match stress while practicing - this can reveal a lot of stuff.

Yeah, I've got a lot of practicing to do.

This 9mm Hi-Power is fine, up-close, from a rest. I know it can shoot great.

I need to find out of it REALLY shoots the same, when it's hot, and copper-fouled, with Winchester White-box, when I'm shooting fast at smaller, further targets.

Mike

[Jim Norman]

Mike,

Have you tried Bill Drills? In fact, go one further, don't bother with the draw, ust start at a low ready and blaze 6 onto a target set up at 7 yards. WHere are your shots?

Jim

[michael_aos]

Mike,

Have you tried Bill Drills? In fact, go one further, don't bother with the draw, ust start at a low ready and blaze 6 onto a target set up at 7 yards. WHere are your shots?

Jim

No, darn it, I haven't.

I shot the Wednesday-night steel match tonight. Did MUCH better -- although the targets were bigger and closer than last week.

My times were a lot longer than I expected. Oh well.

We finished early and I could have stuck around to shoot more steel or set up some IPSC targets if I'd have been thinking.

I was hoping to avoid the "you were gone all night" from my wife so I bailed as soon as I could. Wouldn't you know it -- she's on-call and she's going to be "gone all night"!

Mike

[michael_aos]

Mike,

Please take this in the helpful manner it is intended. If you can't shoot slowly, you can't shoot fast!

In other words, you need to be able to line up the sights and hit a 6" plate at 25 yards consistently. When you can, go faster. When you find you can't hit it, slow down just a bit. Very few people can miss fast enough to win. And they can only do it if the other guy in their class does worse!

If you are shooting as many rounds as you say, you have one or more problems to overcome. Is your gun sighted in? Can you carefully aim at a plate and hit it every time? Can you group 1-2" at 15-25 yards? Place 20 rounds on a 3" circle at that distance? If not you need to ether sight in or practice till you can, no point in running and trying to burn a course down till you can hit reliable what you are shooting at.

Jim Norman

My attitude has been that I just need shots "on paper" for IPSC, so I honestly haven't worried much about the quality of my hits. Your post made me wonder...

Stage 1:

I shot - 104pts, 10 pen, 43.19 seconds. 1st place was 111pts, 0 pen, 21.83 seconds.

Stage 2:

I shot - 89pts, 0 pen, 86.39 seconds. 1st place was 90pts, 0 pen, 21.65 seconds.

Stage 3:

I shot - 107pts, 40 pen, 40.49 seconds. 1st place was 125pts, 0 pen, 21.56 seconds.

Stage 4:

I shot - 99pts, 0 pen, 41.53 seconds. 1st place was 111pts, 0 pen, 20.49 seconds.

Stage 5:

I shot - 49pts, 10 pen, 14.53 seconds. 1st place was 57pts, 0 pen, 8.65 seconds

Stage 6:

I shot - 55pts, 0 pen, 17.02 seconds. 1st place was 54pts, 0 pen, 9.09 seconds.

I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand exactly how the scoring works, but to me -- the points (quality of hits) seems OK. I need to work on the penalties a little but it seems like TIME is what's really killing me.

Mike

[BSeevers]

I was dead last every match I shot my first year. We did not have the internet, books, videos, cds and very many good shooters that were willing to help you improve. In fact some kept you down in those days. All the methods mentioned will help you but I would caution against be too concerned with match results. It can be a negative trap that will eat you up. Now I come to win the match, but I am talking about something else.

The real key to improving is how good do you want to be, and how fast do you want to get there.

The rest is not easy (practice and rds) but can probably be put on paper as a formula.

Where do you want to go and are you willing to do what it takes to get there?

[Chriss Grube]

Some really good shooter once said shoot slow do everything else fast. I think he's won a few little matches like Nationals.

[michael_aos]

Some really good shooter once said shoot slow do everything else fast. I think he's won a few little matches like Nationals.

I was thinking something like that at the steel match tonight.

I FELT like I shot reasonably fast. And I got pretty good hits. But my times just sucked.

I try to have a "sense of urgency" moving between shooting boxes but I may try and kick that up a notch next time.

Mike

[George]

Michael,

I am not a GM, or even an M class shooter, just a lowly B who would be happy to get to A some day soon. The best two pieces of advice I ever got when I first started were to build good fundamentals and then repeat them correctly enough times to burn a groove in so that you don’t have to think about it when you try to do it fast and under pressure. Also, Do Not burn any bad grooves in. I only recently corrected some old things that were harder to un-learn now than they were to learn in the first place back then.

When I came up the wealth of good info was not available like it is now and you had to look at other shooters and ask questions to sort things out, or take expensive classes better left until you get enough experience under your belt to really utilize some specialized training. Nowadays you can get the best instruction in good fundamentals you will ever get by hanging out here and getting just two books online , Brian Enos Practical Shooting and Steve Anderson’s Dry Fire Drills

If you spend a good amount of time of dry firing and doing draw, re-load and transition drills at home you will suddenly find things improving in noticeable spurts at the range. The basics take a few months of pretty regular dedicated practice for the required proficiency to develop. Do not run drills faster than you can do them properly, in other words, don’t let yourself learn sloppy.

I firmly believe that dry fire and handling/movement drills done at home will get you past the first hump (40-45%) pretty quickly if you dedicate the time and follow up with enough live fire to ratify the skills honed at home.

With some good advice, a lot of dry firing at home and one weekly live fire practice session, I went from U to B in under 10 months when I first started. I have seen very focused & dedicated shooters go from new to M as quickly as I got to B. It all really depends on how rigorous you can practice for how long and still keep doing it without letting up after the novelty wears off.

Welcome to the learning curve, we are all on it, no matter where on it we are.

--

Regards,

[Jim Norman]

Mike,

You indicated you aren't sure how the scoring works. I think this may help a bit.

Looking over the times you posted, it appears that your hits are OK, you are running at about 50% of the winners speed. I would not try to run with him just yet, but I would say you need to pick-up the pace a bit. The question remains however, are you shooting slow, or are you shooting twice as many rounds and having to do extra reloads and also taking time in that manner? You may find that slowing down 10% between your shots may save you 20% or more on a stage since you will miss having to do extra reloads plus the time to take the shots will go away.

As to how the scoring works: Scoring a stage is relatively simple. Add up the points you earn, subtract any penalties and dived by how long it took you to get there.

That is Hit Factor in a nutshell. Higher number is a better score.

ex: 10 shots on 5 targets in 5 seconds. You shoot 1A,1C on each you earn 45 points, divide by 5 seconds and you have a 9 HF, Your buddy shoots all 9A's, 1C in 5.4 seconds, he was slower, but his HF is 9.07 You scored 99.2% of his score. He gets all the points available for this stage, 50, you get a percentage of the points based upon the stage winner in your division. So you get 99.2% of the 50 points or 49.61 points.

Total up all the stage points and you know who won.

Now, you see that speed AND accuracy are important. If you had dropped a few less C's you'd have beat him Had he shot a bit slower you'd have beat him.

A second example, 100 point stage. You shoot down 10 points, in 13 seconds for a HF of 6.92, your buddy shoots clean, but in 15 seconds, HF 6.6. He is at 95% of you. He was more accurate, and slower, you were fast enough to win.

Remember that: Hits Count. Speed Counts. Speedy Hits Count Best.

Jim

[michael_aos]

Here's an idea of where I was at overall.

The first match I just walked and basically shot in slow-motion. Mostly worried about safety and not concerned about score. The second match was similar.

I shot some really good stages the 3rd match, but blew one horribly. Wound up with a 0 for the stage (more penalties than points).

Date Place Of Percent

1/11/04 40 45 24.71%

3/14/04 74 102 29.54%

5/9/04 40 44 26.36%

7/11/04 39 43 30.81%

It may not be an ideal goal, but right now I'm less concerned about being a "D" or "C" class shooter than about being somewhere in the middle of the pack. I'd feel a lot better if I was coming in like #25 of 43 instead of #39 of 43.

Sorry I kind of mixed two different things into the discussion. This was supposed to be about improving at IPSC, but I mentioned our local Wednesday Night Steel match -- that's the one where I just couldn't seem to hit a darned thing. Lots of smaller targets, further than I was used to.

Shot the steel match last night and had MUCH better hits. Seems like the targets were bigger and closer this time though. Times still sucked.

Mike

[michael_aos]

OK, I'm going to order some books & DVD's ASAP.

Thank you.

Mike

[michael_aos]

Are there any pellet / soft-air pistols & targets that made good training aids?

I'd love an excuse to set up some targets and start shooting in the backyard.

(as I read it, the local ordnance says airguns are OK as long as the projectile does not leave my property)

A mini plate-rack would be sweet....

Mike

[Matthew_Mink]

I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand exactly how the scoring works, but to me -- the points (quality of hits) seems OK.  I need to work on the penalties a little but it seems like TIME is what's really killing me.

Mike, I'll second the notion of figuring out how scoring works. It will definately help your shooting, and more specifically it will help you plan out how to shoot stages.

Also, I picked up on one other little tidbit. You mentioned working on penalties a little. I totally disagree. I would work on the penalties a LOT. You will find your standings will improve dramatically by not having any penalties. I make it a goal at every match I attend to have zero penalties. Shooting clean is also a great way to get your mental game down.

[michael_aos]

OK -- will work on penalties and looks like I've got some "issues" with jerking the trigger.

I was also thinking some more today -- especially about "shoot slow, do everything else fast". I think I'm losing a lot of time not moving around the stage faster. On the stages where it's just "stand and shoot" I tend to do MUCH better (in comparison to the other stages).

[uscbigdawg]

1 - Take a class from Matt Burkett. In looking at your groups, you're all over the place, which usually is a sign of inconsistency and a breaking down in grip, stance and trigger control. Matt is REAAAAALLLY good at working these bugs out.

2 - Buy Matt's DVD's and his book. These will help reinforce his teaching off the range.

3 - Start practicing doing the right things.

Rich

[michael_aos]

I'm going to buy some books & DVD's. Really.

This thread has been great. Thank you guys.

Another thought -- I have 9 handguns, although I only shoot 4 on a regular basis:

IPSC -- Springfield "Loaded" stainless 1911 in .40 S&W (Limited-10)

IDPA -- Springfield "Mil Spec" 1911 in .38 Super (ESP)

Steel -- Browning Hi-Power 9mm (Limited)

Then my camping gun -- Glock 34 w/Surefire X200.

It's been suggested I concentrate on just shooting one of them well -- "Beware the man with one gun" sort of thing.

Thoughts?

Mike

[shred]

OK -- will work on penalties and looks like I've got some "issues" with jerking the trigger.

I was also thinking some more today -- especially about "shoot slow, do everything else fast".  I think I'm losing a lot of time not moving around the stage faster.  On the stages where it's just "stand and shoot" I tend to do MUCH better (in comparison to the other stages).

No doubt you are losing time moving. BUT.. there's not a whole lot to do about it until you get the shooting fundamentals down. Speed through a stage comes from knowing exactly what you have to do. That comes from experience and practice.

Learn what it takes to shoot A's at any range from 3 to 25 or 50 yards.

Here's a (ammo intensive) drill for that:

• You get 100 shots. To pass, 90 of them have to be in the A zone.
  Put a target at the desired distance. Load a magazine with 10 rounds.
  Draw and shoot one shot. Holster and repeat. Do that 10 times, go downrange and tape.
  Repeat 10 times. If you didn't put more than 10 outside the A-zone, you pass.
  Move to a different distance and repeat.
  

There are tons of variations possible-- 2 shots per target, low-ready, reloads, upper A/B, one hand, whatever you need to work on. Don't try and shortcut by only shooting 10 or 20 rounds.. it's the pressure you get when you're at 80 shots and have 8 out that really tells you what you can execute.

[michael_aos]

Here's a drill for that:

• You get 100 shots. To pass, 90 of them have to be in the A zone.
  Put a target at the desired distance. Load a magazine with 10 rounds.
  Draw and shoot one shot. Holster and repeat. Do that 10 times, go downrange and tape.
  Repeat 10 times. If you didn't put more than 10 outside the A-zone, you pass at that range.
  Move to a different range and repeat.
  

I'll try that.

All this great advice really makes me want to head to the range!

Mike

[Chriss Grube]

2 schools of thought fast and then learn to be accurate or Accurate then try to learn speed. From what I've seen the best guys seem to be fast the learn to be accurate. I came in from an accuracy background in Mil and LE. No problem shooting A's but my times sucked. Once I started picking up the pace and accepting a couple C's I moved up real fast. Accuracy is just learning the proper grip and doing the same thing over and over. Speed is all the little things that add a .1 or .2 everywhere. I see a lot of guys give up .5 to 1 sec just on the draw, .2+ on transitions and whole seconds on getting in and out of position. Eliminate all the wasted movement and you'll gain 2-5 seconds a stage.

[michael_aos]

Wussed out and skipped the 3-gun match this morning. Headed down to the range late, just as they were leaving.

I keep thinking / hoping some of my problem is the trigger on the Hi-Power. Here's a couple targets from the 1911 I use in Limited-10. It sort of seemed like I actually shot a little BETTER when I shot a little faster -vs- trying really, really hard to shot good groups slowly.

Also seemed like changing the target helped a lot too. I was using 3/4" or 1" "dots" on an 8" plate but I tended to wind up just shooting at the plate. With these I was shooting at a smaller target inside the larger one.

[ErikW]

The pictures were cropped on the left... is that 19 yards, 29 yards, or 99 yards?

I also will sometimes shoot better, faster. I noticed this doing TGO's plate rack test at 25 yards. If the sight alignment and sight picture are right, they are right, and there's no reason to wait around for things to get better because they can only get worse.