New load problem?

[Destry34]

Well I am kinda disappointed, I loaded 100 rds of 9 with 3.8 gr of solo 1000 1.135 oal. 147gr berrys rn. The rounds were very inaccurate, they were all over the place they were mainly high at 7yds pretty much on at 10yds and all over the place at 15 and 20. I don't know if the recoil spring would have anything to do with it? I am shooting a glock 34 with the stock 17lb spring. I had about 50 rds of store bought (Remington umc) and they shot great, very accurate but alot more recoil. I am trying to find a good, somewhat accurate load with as little recoil as possible. I haven't been reloading but for about 6 months or so, so I don't know where to start in finding the problem or finding a load that suits me. Sorry for the long read, but any and all advise would be greatly appreciated

[Hi-Power Jack]

Destry, what was the velocity on your reloads?

Might be the bullet - have you tried lighter

bullets? or different brands? (MG's?)

Could be you are overcrimping??

[Sarge]

Destry,

First you will need a chrono to do load development. If nothing else, borrow one, but in my experience most folks don't like to loan out chronos. Without knowing the data on that load it is going to be very hard to help you get things dialed in.

But I know this much. My 34 shot 147s fine with about the same amount of solo1000. The big difference? The bullet you are using. Berry's are problematic for most who try to get great results out of them. Do some searching for Berry's on here and read for yourself.

That being said, you still need to chrono the load because you may have a weak jug of 1000(Do a search on that too)and simply are not getting good performance because of a weak load.

[Sarge]

And, don't be disappointed. It takes a good bit of trial and error to get a good shooting load worked up.

[Too_Slow]

You might try an actual jacketed bullet instead of plated like the Berry's. The stock Glock barrels can have problems with lead and plated bullets due to the type of rifling used in them.

Brian

WOW three other posts while I was reading and typing.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Too_Slow

[Destry34]

Thanks for all the replies, I will try a different bullet is there any particular brand y'all have good luck with. This is the first time I've ever had a load this inaccurate and it was also the first time I've used berrys plated bullets.

What i have learned: when trying out a new bullet don't buy a thousand rds

[Cheesewhiz]

The nice thing about plated bullets is you can tell if you are overcrimping them, just pull the bullet and you will see a line around the bullet from the case. If you see any line, no matter how faint, you are overcrimping. If someone is new to reloading, especially 9mm, I recommend using FMJ RN bullets to get started, try to make them just like some decent factory practice rounds, get them right first. After you get this down, you can move onto playing with powders, different FMJ bullet types and weights and then maybe go to some plated and lead bullets. I have very good luck with plated bullets, mainly Berry's anymore, did I say luck?

[Destry34]

^^^ thanks will do

[littletoe]

im gonna probably start an arguement with this but here goes......the number one thing i can find that effects accuracy is airspace in the casing. or more specifically the position of the powder......hear me out.....when you load your powder its all at the bottom of the cartridge....when you load it in the mags it is laying sideways and the powder falls to the bottom side of the case..when your gun cycles it slams the bullet into the chamber and all the powder moves forward against the back of the bullet ...see what im saying ? the airspace is different which changes the way your powder ignites....if you want the most accurate bullets find a powder that fills the case as completely as possible to reduce the amount of powder position deviations and your accuracy will improve greatly. but dont take my word for it...test it for yourself. a lot of people like super fast powder for because it generally uses less powder..but in my test its also the least accurate loads.....one of the most accurate powders ive found for 9mm is AA#7...its a pretty slow powder butt will completely fill the case...no airspace.....i can hit a 10 inch plate every shot at 75 yards and if i change nothing but the powder to say..win231....i might hit it 1 time out of ten..

groups are also all over the place and so are the fps with the chrony...its very close with the no airspace rounds and deviates by 100 fps with the faster powder more airspace rounds......

The thing to ask yourself is do you need that kind of accuracy for the game you are playing? most of the USPSA/IPSC stages don't require long shots as a rule so the lesser amount of powder is a justifiable trade off.....

ok.. let the professional retorts to this begin

[Doc Hunter]

Get a real bullet and stop wasting time and money.

[Hi-Power Jack]

if you want accurate bullets find a powder that fills the case

one of the most accurate powders I've found for 9mm is AA#7

do you need that kind of accuracy for the game you are playing?

Littletoe, you pretty well summed it up - I've seen many reports here

of how accurate the AA7 is, and as you mentioned, probably not necessary

to be that accurate for USPSA or IDPA. Other things might be more important

in our sport.

The topic though is this particular load isn't anywhere near as accurate

as factory ammo That's pretty bad, usually.

So, I agree with everything you said - but that's really not the question

being asked, I don't think. IMHO.

He's trying to make up some loads that are at least as accurate as

factory ammo - that should be pretty easy, I would think.

[Sarge]

im gonna probably start an arguement with this but here goes......the number one thing i can find that effects accuracy is airspace in the casing. or more specifically the position of the powder......hear me out.....when you load your powder its all at the bottom of the cartridge....when you load it in the mags it is laying sideways and the powder falls to the bottom side of the case..when your gun cycles it slams the bullet into the chamber and all the powder moves forward against the back of the bullet ...see what im saying ? the airspace is different which changes the way your powder ignites....if you want the most accurate bullets find a powder that fills the case as completely as possible to reduce the amount of powder position deviations and your accuracy will improve greatly. but dont take my word for it...test it for yourself. a lot of people like super fast powder for because it generally uses less powder..but in my test its also the least accurate loads.....one of the most accurate powders ive found for 9mm is AA#7...its a pretty slow powder butt will completely fill the case...no airspace.....i can hit a 10 inch plate every shot at 75 yards and if i change nothing but the powder to say..win231....i might hit it 1 time out of ten..

groups are also all over the place and so are the fps with the chrony...its very close with the no airspace rounds and deviates by 100 fps with the faster powder more airspace rounds......

The thing to ask yourself is do you need that kind of accuracy for the game you are playing? most of the USPSA/IPSC stages don't require long shots as a rule so the lesser amount of powder is a justifiable trade off.....

ok.. let the professional retorts to this begin

Certainly not a professional retort by any stretch but I don't know about your theory. I have certainly never heard it put so well. All I know is I have loaded 9mm rounds that were around half full or less and when I reduced the loads or lengthened the oal they got more accurate. I have gotten 6" groups at 25 yards that went to 2" groups by doing the above.

Also, now that I shoot 9MAJOR I have loaded some cases to the rim and stuffed a bullet on top that were less accurate than my current Autocomp loads which only fill the case about 2/3 or so.

It may depend more on the powder I guess.

[gng4life]

It could be several things here but first, as it was listed above, what is your crimp? Please measure and report it back to us.

Second, I shot Barrys and other plated bullets for years and I had some good luck and then some bad luck with them. I now almost exclusively shoot MG/Zero/PD/Bayou now but mostly MG. I never have an issue with any of my 9/38/40/45 loads. So the bullet could account for it.

Third, the way you describe it (7-high (how high?), 10-right on target, 15&20- all over the place (is there a pattern at all?)) appears like it is a long range issue, since 7 and 10 seems to be okay. Again, I have seen this with plated bullets. For example, when I was developing a Steel load, I took some MG 95 JHP and Barrys 100 RN and tested them. No matter how I adjusted the loads, the OAL, the powder type and weight, etc. the Barrys where always were about twice the pattern and size after about 15 yards. I wouldn't say they were "all over the place" but the spread was twice as large as the MG loads across the board.

Yeah, I know, some people are going to come on and say Barrys are the greatest and most accurate and I don't doubt you, I just haven't seen it in my testing.

Also, Littletoe, about your theory. I believe the cowboy shooters already know about that and I read something about them doing the same thing but for long cartridges such as the 38Spc/38LC, etc.

[Steve RA]

If you want to check the theory, just load ten or so the normal way and the same # with a pinch of cotton - or anything light and fluffy - to hold the powder next to the flash hole and shoot them for group. That way you can see if it works for you or not.

[gm iprod]

I have got to agree with Sarge here.

I does depend on your powder though.

Put a pinch if cotton on top of my TG load for 38Super and you will wear a slide in your face. My current load at 4.7gr with a 115gr JHP will hold 3/4" at 50Y, and that fills less than 1/2 the available space behind the projectile. Better if I was not such an ass with the gun sometimes.

Do anything other than 90% load density with a Slower Powder like HS7 3N38 or N350 and you make a pattern a shotgun would be embarrassed to launch. Keeping the load density high with slow burners is mandatory for consistant ignition and preventing a squib. With fast burners, Clays, TG, WST, N320 and others, it is less of a problem, much less.

Horses for courses. With 9mm and Glocks I prefer a fast to medium burn rate powder, certainly for minor power factor nothing slower than Universal or Unique. Tight Group or WSF for example and Jacketed (not plated) 124gr projectiles. My current favourite is 125gr Zero JHP and about 3.8gr to 4.0gr Tight Group, seems to want to stay under 2" at 25 with most everything we have tested. Some guns prefer what they prefer and that is where the experimentation comes in. Slight changes in crimp with plated bullets will have catastrophic effects, where as the same change with a JHP or FMJ will not seem to cause so much difference.

I believe the OP problems would be served best, as already suggested, to use a FMJ and start slow. Once you have determined the true velocity of your loads with a known accurate bullet you are then in a position to make the neccessary adjustments to fine tune for your firearm.

gng4life, the cowboy dudes use such a small amount of powder in their loads that anything to keep the powder in place is warranted. If they used a little more powder they would solve the problem, but raise another issue. Recoil, their game is about keeping the load as close to the minimum the rules allow to enable them to shoot the fastest possible time with the firearm at hand. Many are using very fast burning powder and very light weight lead projectiles, the airspace behind the projectile in a 38Special case is barrel 25% filled with the powder they like to use. I have found that switching to Tail Boss, which is essentially light fluffy fast burning, that problem is significantly reduced.

I stopped using filler in subsonic ammunition and switched to a more appropriate powder as we were getting ring bulges in chambers in 45 and 50 cal rifles with heavy bullets as pressures were in consistent and the powder would mix with the filler over time and be held in suspension within the case, any one blown sugar over a gas burner?

Edited April 20, 2012 by gm iprod

[Destry34]

Thanks for all the replies. I pulled a bullet today and there was an indentiom for to much crimp, so I reset my crimp and there was no line on the bullet. I am going to shoot in the morning and will report back. I hope to learn as much of y'all experienced with time most of it makes sense but some of it is over my head, once I find a soft shooting accurate load that will make a power factor of about 130-135 I will start playing and learning about different loads. Thanks again

[Cheesewhiz]

I load Berry's 124gr HBRN with HP-38/231 in the mid 4gr range. I also find that a longer bullet set is correct for Berry's RN bullets. I load them at 1.165" OAL, all Berry's RN have the same ogive, so the lengths clear the same. For 147gr Berry's bullets, I would recommend WSF in the upper mid 3gr range (3.5 to 3.7), my guess, not a guess really, soft shooter and accurate.

[littletoe]

hey guys....great retorting .....you will notice that i said one of the things that affects accuracy....there are many things that affect it but most of them relate to the airspace. Overall length is another big factor...find the length that it takes to get as close to the rifling as possible without actually binding....i wasnt knocking anyones loads nor was i trying to say mine were better...on the contrary ...i was just putting some of my personal observations out there for you all to pick apart and add too...I am an expert by no means and i learn so much from you guys ever day...heck some of you have been reloading longer than Ive been alive...But one of the things I have learned is that when you think you have it all figured out....thats usually when you find out your not even close....

[Destry34]

ok I went and shot at the range today, and after adjusting the crimp die they did shoot a little more accurate. Not any where near accurate as factory loads they just shot a little better. Also I got a bullet stuck in the barrel it just barely made it to the rifling of the barrel. I think it just didnt get any powder in the case, if it would have had any powder at all wouldn't it have went farther into the barrel before getting stuck. Thanks

[Red Ryder]

And, don't be disappointed. It takes a good bit of trial and error to get a good shooting load worked up.

AMEN!

[Hi-Power Jack]

they did shoot a little more accurate. Not near accurate as factory loads they just shot a little better. I think it just didnt get any powder in the case

Destry, loading up 50 rounds with different amounts of powder

in each case will make your reloads "not near accurate".

Part of the problem, besides your choice of bullets, is

not ensuring that each cartridge gets the same amount of

powder??? Might try working on the reloading technique

a bit

[jmorris]

I am trying to find a good, somewhat accurate load with as little recoil as possible.

You won't find a better load that will make minor than, 3.1 of VVN310 with the Berry's 147 @ 1.160" has worked in everything I have tried it in except the ported barrel of the mp5sd.

Don't look at crimping as "crimping" as much as taking the bell out of the case. This is NOT an area where if a little is good a lot is better, with any bullet but certainly not plated bullets.

Edited April 22, 2012 by jmorris

[shooter57]

You might want to try dropping the amount of powder a couple of grains and see what happens. your at the top of the scale for solo. would even get a pound of another powder to try. I like WST but I also don't shoot Glocks.

[Destry34]

I will look at different powders an possibly some jacketed bullets. I am weighing the powder drop every 20 to 30 or so.

[gng4life]

Destry34, be careful with too much powder level checking and stopping your normal reloading process. More than likely, that was the cause of your squib round. The reloading process takes full attention to ensure it is done safely but don't get taken over by the theory of "analysis paralysis"...

Good luck with your search for the right load!