Fault lines not specified in the COF description

[DarthMuffin]

Quick question that came up at a L1 match:

If the stage description does not specify that targets must be engaged within a shooting area, is the "default" that it should be so?

This came up because there was a stage, with boards set out to define what one could assume was a shooting area. However, the stage description said nothing about it. It just mentioned that all targets must be engaged through ports. I did that, but with disregard for the fault lines defining the shooting area.

I couldn't find a rule covering this, but the CRO said it was a "default" assumption and I got a reshoot since they couldn't remember the count for all my procedurals.

[Skydiver]

Was there a stage diagram posted? Did it mark out a shooting area in the diagram?

If the WSB only required that targets be engaged through ports and made no mention of having to stay within a shooting area, I say that you were good to go the first time through. Live and learn time for the stage designer for forgetting to make the statement, and/or forgetting to label the shooting area.

[Chills1994]

slight thread drift ahead.... sorry, but with respect to fault lines and steel targets...

Does there need to be some sort of fault line or physical barrier at, I think, the 24 foot mark from the steel?

To our OP, I think you were fine the first time you shot the stage through the ports as per the WSB.

[DarthMuffin]

No diagram.

I'll pay more attention and try to bring it up *before* shooting the stage next time. Not a big deal this time since I got the reshoot.

[MarkCO]

SNIP...If the stage description does not specify that targets must be engaged within a shooting area, is the "default" that it should be so?

...SNIP...

I couldn't find a rule covering this, but the CRO said it was a "default" assumption and I got a reshoot since they couldn't remember the count for all my procedurals.

Wow. The CRO needs to be chastized and sent back to RO school...really! There is no "default" or "assumption" in USPSA. That is one (of many) reason why the rulebook is so thick. Your first score should have stood with no penalty.

slight thread drift ahead.... sorry, but with respect to fault lines and steel targets...

Does there need to be some sort of fault line or physical barrier at, I think, the 24 foot mark from the steel?

Yes, and I pissed off a fellow board member by forcing reconstruction of a stage at walk through for this very reason last week.

No diagram.

I'll pay more attention and try to bring it up *before* shooting the stage next time. Not a big deal this time since I got the reshoot.

No diagram = No stage description...again that CRO needs to go back to RO school. Don't bring it up before you shoot. Shoot it the way you want and when they try to issue procedurals, ask for the rule and hand them the rulebook. I'd also have some tabs for the requirement of WSBs. It is just lazy course design from what you have described. That may not be the friendliest way to address the issue, but anyone who is a CRO who does what you described likely can't be talked sensibly into understanding the error of his ways. Clock a stage or two, and things will get tightened up. FWIW, I'd also suggest a conversation with your section co-ordinator.

[DarthMuffin]

Thanks for the clarification. There are some "default assumptions" in USPSA, like hands relaxed at sides if not specified. That's the comparison the CRO gave, but there's nothing in the rules about always observing 2x4's as fault lines and assuming the space they enclose is a shooting area... I will stick to my guns next time Or better yet be onhand to help set up the day before.

[Graham Smith]

We always include a marked shooting area on our stages and in the diagrams. This year, I started including a comment in the match briefing that shooters had to stay within the marked shooting area, just to be sure.

[Sarge]

This year, I started including a comment in the match briefing that shooters had to stay within the marked shooting area, just to be sure.

You mean you don't allow shooters to step out of the shooting area at all? You can't do that.

[Graham Smith]

You mean you don't allow shooters to step out of the shooting area at all? You can't do that.

Isn't that what off-limit lines in 2.2.1 allow?

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Graham Smith

[Skydiver]

You mean you don't allow shooters to step out of the shooting area at all? You can't do that.

Isn't that what off-limit lines in 2.2.1 allow?

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

Off Limit lines are different from fault lines. Off limit lines are established beyond the fault lines.

2.2.1.5 Off-Limits Lines may be used to define an area of the range floor which has been declared off-limits. The written stage briefing must identify the presence and location of Off-Limits Lines (if any). The off-limits area must be clearly delineated with rope, caution tape or other materials and must be at least 2 feet high and at least 2 feet from any Fault Line or Shooting Box. (See Rule 10.2.11)

And additionally, the off-limits areas can't be used to limit competitor movement (2.3.1.1.b ) unless it's for safety or to preemptively close off a loophole. (To me, a RM can close off a loophole after the fact (when the stage has been setup, some competitors have been run and the loophole is found) -- but not preemptively. I feel that if it's before the first shooter gets to shoot the stage, the course should be modified, and the FA is a last resort.)

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain competitive equity.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition or to prohibit exploit of an unintended course loophole in order to circumvent a course requirement and/or gain unfair competitive advantage.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from "cutting the corner" on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers and/or physical barriers.

c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (b ), an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is considered a Forbidden Action.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Skydiver

[Graham Smith]

And additionally, the off-limits areas can't be used to limit competitor movement (2.3.1.1.b ) unless it's for safety or to preemptively close off a loophole.

2.3.1.1 c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (, an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is considered a Forbidden Action.

I'm not a "rules lawyer" but this seems fairly clear to me. Providing the stage briefing says you must remain within the shooting area. I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before and I know that this is routinely done. Maybe it's one of those Level I things.

It's also worth noting that the whole 2.3 section relates to modifications of the course. 2.2, on the other hand relates to course construction and as I noted before 2.2.1.5 allows for the delineation of off-limits areas. I can understand if, halfway through the match, it is decided that you can't do this. But as long as it is clearly stated to start with, I'm not sure why this would be an issue.

[MarkCO]

Graham, I beleive you are correct. I just went through the stage approval process with NROI and I had stages with off-limits areas. I got a tad of push-back, probably due to verbiage and confusion with fault lines in the WSB as well, but once we used the same words, NROI approved their use.

Off-limts do not have to be exclusively "beyond the fault lines" and they CAN be used to limit competitor movement. There are "shooting areas", "fault lines" and "off-limits" lines. They all have a different purpose and different requirements, even construction and geometry. The consequences for crossing the lines vary as well depending on if a shot was fired or not and what kind of line they are.

[waktasz]

I shoot your match every month (well, except for this month) Graham, and I've never noticed your stages to have off limits lines. Are you saying all of the fault lines at your matches are actually defining the area where you can stand, not just shoot?

[Graham Smith]

I shoot your match every month (well, except for this month) Graham, and I've never noticed your stages to have off limits lines. Are you saying all of the fault lines at your matches are actually defining the area where you can stand, not just shoot?

We have never made an issue of remaining inside the shooting area, but we have some stage designs pending where this may be an issue. Anyhoo, last month, I included a statement during the walk through that shooters needed to remain within the shooting area during the COF. The thing about it is, that it seems that everyone always seemed to assume that you had to stay within the shooting area even though it was not specifically stated so a couple people asked if this was a change.

[MarkCO]

You can not use ground tactile fault lines as "off-limits" lines. If there is a defined shooting area with fault lines, the competitor can go do a jig over the line without penalty, so long as a shot is not fired. Off-limits lines have specific constraints as stated in the rule-books, and going beyond the line incurs a penalty whether or not a shot is fired. They can be used to keep a competitor out of or within an area.

If you have ground tactile fault lines you are planning on making "off-limits" lines, you should come up with a better solution.

[Poppa Bear]

We will use off-limit lines to stop shooter movement in a direction we do not want them to go. An example is a stage we recently did, without the off-limit it would allow the shooter to run around the right side of the wall and out of the shooting area. They could then run back into the shooting area and start the stage from there. This would take a stage that people were shooting in 15 seconds into one shot in 5 because everything was easily available without the walls.

We do not always specify that all shots need to be taken from inside the shooting area, but those are the stages where nothing is available from outside the shooting area.

I have failed to place all fault lines in a stage. Second or third shooter exploited it and from there on everyone shot it the easy way. I screwed up and accepted it.

[Skydiver]

To further the thread drift about Off-Limits areas, this stage made interesting use of an Off-Limits area to provide RO access, but prevent the shooter from bypassing the Cooper Tunnel. http://northwestsection.org/nwc10/files/Wascally%20Wabbit%20%20revised%20Bay%2010.pdf

I questioned the legality of such an area since it didn't comply with the at least 2 feet away from a fault line or shooting box clause of 2.2.1.5, nor did it have any rope/tape/etc. 2 feet above the ground when it was setup. I was told, Amidon had given the stage his blessing for a Level II match, so it was good to go. Any which way, the stage was a ton of fun to shoot. That pass through for the RO made life so much easier when running a shooter.

[sperman]

I've never been involved in running a major match, so I'm not sure exactly how stages get submitted to and approved by NROI. I have a feeling it's pretty hard to make a decision about a stage based on a 1 page diagram and briefing. What gets setup for the match could be significantly different than what NROI thinks it is approving.

[MarkCO]

The better the drawing, the closer it will be. There are some that submit what they know will get approved and then set up what they want, which is dishonest. The approval process if there for a reason. For pistol, it works well if the MD/RM want it to.

[DarthMuffin]

To further the thread drift about Off-Limits areas, this stage made interesting use of an Off-Limits area to provide RO access, but prevent the shooter from bypassing the Cooper Tunnel. http://northwestsection.org/nwc10/files/Wascally%20Wabbit%20%20revised%20Bay%2010.pdf

I questioned the legality of such an area since it didn't comply with the at least 2 feet away from a fault line or shooting box clause of 2.2.1.5, nor did it have any rope/tape/etc. 2 feet above the ground when it was setup. I was told, Amidon had given the stage his blessing for a Level II match, so it was good to go. Any which way, the stage was a ton of fun to shoot. That pass through for the RO made life so much easier when running a shooter.

I question that too, but I guess if Amidon gave the OK, who am I to argue?

I still don't like off limits areas, they're a band-aid for a poorly designed stage and just invite IDPA-style forced procedures. Change up the problem rather than forcing the solution you want to see. The only two uses I can imagine for them are at a small club's L1 match where they have limited resources for props/walls/etc, or if you have an oddly shaped or under-construction bay and need to keep people out of a certain area for safety reasons.

I designed a stage similar to the above for our L2 match last year where the RO could walk around the tunnel. To avoid shooters bypassing the tunnel I just put a step-on activator in the tunnel. The above stage could have been fixed by that, or by just eliminating the right-hand port in the tunnel and associated targets, or by staggering the ports so you can't "shoot through".

Edited April 20, 2012 by DarthMuffin

[MarkCO]

Granted it is shotgun, but check out the 3rd stage in this set of ocurses. The off-limtis ropes are perfect for this type of course. There are several types of courses where the off-limtis areas are very suitable and not just poor course design.

[Sarge]

I don't see how NROI or Amidon for that matter can get around written rules.

2.2.1.5 Off-Limits Lines may be used to define an area of the range

floor which has been declared off-limits. The written stage briefing must identify the presence and location of Off-Limits Lines

(if any). The off-limits area must be clearly delineated with rope,

caution tape or other materials and must be at least 2 feet high

and at least 2 feet from any Fault Line or Shooting Box. (See

Rule 10.2.11)

[EkuJustice]

I have seen some off limits used as a cut through was added for the RO to avoid getting trapped.

On the one about going outside the shooting area and making a 15 second stage a 5 second one. Wouldnt the outside the shooting area be a no go for shooting anyway? The real reason to go out of the shooting area is not to shoot but to save movement ie run acroos an area or around something and step back in and start shooting

[Scott R]

Granted it is shotgun, but check out the 3rd stage in this set of ocurses. The off-limtis ropes are perfect for this type of course. There are several types of courses where the off-limtis areas are very suitable and not just poor course design.

Maybe I am just missing it, but in that stage what do the "off-limits ropes" accomplish that fault lines would not? Besides maybe it is a little easier/quicker to lay out ropes than fault lines.

[MarkCO]

Granted it is shotgun, but check out the 3rd stage in this set of ocurses. The off-limtis ropes are perfect for this type of course. There are several types of courses where the off-limtis areas are very suitable and not just poor course design.

Maybe I am just missing it, but in that stage what do the "off-limits ropes" accomplish that fault lines would not? Besides maybe it is a little easier/quicker to lay out ropes than fault lines.

It is easier to use rope for sure. However, when laying out a stage with grass on the ground, the rope is easier to see for the shooter, especially when they are moving side to side with targets. It is actually "kinder" to the shooter and allows them to go faster.