DQ offense for finger in trigger guard during Make Ready

[West Texas Granny]

I do believe that except where your safety or livelihood are at stake, hiding behind a screen name reduces your standing. Many of the people here have a screen name, but have their real name in their profile. Others are known in real life by their screen names, sort of like a nickname.

If you area a casual poster asking a question, it is not a big deal, but when you continuously question and argue against just about everything, it would be interesting to know where you are coming from. Are you a real competitor/shooter? are you a troll using an online persona to cause dissension in the ranks, or to mine for information that can be used to damage us?

Where are all the unsafe actions actually taking place? we might think that this is a 45-70 YO 'granny somewhere in West Texas, for all we know this person is in Hong Kong, or Washington DC or London England and is looking at ways to attack USPSA on safety issues.

Once or twice questioning a position or asking a question is not a red flag, but doing so over and over with little to support your positions makes one wonder.

Well Jim it is just that. My personal safety. It's one reason I took up shooting. To ensure that there is no " next time". Yet things have grown past the self defense stage. I now compete with rifle,shotgun and pistol.

I am a grandmother of 4.

I didn't start this thread. All I did was offer my view which to many is not welcomed. Sorry if I don't know my place but if it appears to be a safety violation I'm going to question it just like in this instance. I see no difference between taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with your finger in the trigger well versus moving with your finger in the trigger well or reloading your gun with your finger in the trigger well. No difference.

Now I don't call people names but you seem to feel its ok to call me a name.

[waktasz]

A finger in the trigger guard while moving is only a DQ if you are not aiming or shooting at targets.

[Skydiver]

A finger in the trigger guard while moving is only a DQ if you are not aiming or shooting at targets.

+1.

You said it so succinctly!

[aztecdriver]

[snip] I see no difference between taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with your finger in the trigger well versus moving with your finger in the trigger well or reloading your gun with your finger in the trigger well. No difference.

[snip]

Here's the important part of the entire 20 posts or so - so I'll work with ya on this.

I don't see the relation here. A sight picture - in my definition - is simply an engagement on a target without firing. That means I'm pointing the gun at the target, aiming, and simulating fire. I say <BANG> or some stupid thing. It's not unsafe, in my opinion, to touch the trigger here, because if it goes off - I'm actually shooting a target. It was just not the appropriate time to do so, and in order to cover ALL possibilities of what a shot during make ready may be - the rule requires a DQ.

So a couple of things, describe to the discussion what is sight picture, in your mind is. You are equating moving with the gun. You do realize that I can set a target up at 50 yards down range with a fault line right in front of it, retrieve my gun from a barrel at the back of the range, point my gun at it ready to shoot - finger on the trigger and run up to that fault line - finger on the trigger and be perfectly fine.

(why someone would do this - no clue, but I can tell you this, if you've seen what my sight looks like when I try to shoot on the move - it might take 50 yards to settle it down enough to break the shot)

Point is, as someone already pointed out, I can move with my finger on the trigger so long as I'm engaging targets while I'm doing so. What are your thoughts on this?

For the purposes of the rules, and safety for that matter, there is a huge difference between a sight picture (a simulated engagement on a target) and moving from location to location - or - as someone suggested previously, reloading. I'd need to understand more of why you think there is no difference between them, when I believe and have shown there clearly is...

Thanks for this part of the conversation.

[glefos]

Using your trunk as a safe area. You shouldn't comment on safety until you correct that blatant disregard for our rulebook.

[West Texas Granny]

Using your trunk as a safe area. You shouldn't comment on safety until you correct that blatant disregard for our rulebook.

Well tthis practice has been ongoing for over 20 years without incident. Our safety record is second to none. None of the GM's or RO's who have shot or shoot our match have said a single thing. Now if you want to talk about the rule book then you better clean up that mess that allows safeties to be disabled on a firearm and dropping the hammer on a chambered round. I can guarantee you that If someone is injured with a weapon that has a safety disabled or as the result of manually dropping the hammer on a loaded round the Courts are going to roast you and the rulebook a very Well Done.

[wgnoyes]

Using your trunk as a safe area. You shouldn't comment on safety until you correct that blatant disregard for our rulebook.

...Well tthis practice has been ongoing for over 20 years without incid--<waste of bandwidth snip>

Then it's been going on 20 years too long. Safety Areas are defined and referenced all through the USPSA rulebook. Your car trunk is NOT a safety area. Therefore handling a gun there at a match is a 10.5.1 DQ. It's a USPSA match. You have to follow the USPSA rulebook. It's that simple.

Edited May 14, 2012 by wgnoyes

[West Texas Granny]

[snip] I see no difference between taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with your finger in the trigger well versus moving with your finger in the trigger well or reloading your gun with your finger in the trigger well. No difference.

[snip]

Here's the important part of the entire 20 posts or so - so I'll work with ya on this.

I don't see the relation here. A sight picture - in my definition - is simply an engagement on a target without firing. That means I'm pointing the gun at the target, aiming, and simulating fire. I say <BANG> or some stupid thing. It's not unsafe, in my opinion, to touch the trigger here, because if it goes off - I'm actually shooting a target. It was just not the appropriate time to do so, and in order to cover ALL possibilities of what a shot during make ready may be - the rule requires a DQ.

So a couple of things, describe to the discussion what is sight picture, in your mind is. You are equating moving with the gun. You do realize that I can set a target up at 50 yards down range with a fault line right in front of it, retrieve my gun from a barrel at the back of the range, point my gun at it ready to shoot - finger on the trigger and run up to that fault line - finger on the trigger and be perfectly fine.

(why someone would do this - no clue, but I can tell you this, if you've seen what my sight looks like when I try to shoot on the move - it might take 50 yards to settle it down enough to break the shot)

Point is, as someone already pointed out, I can move with my finger on the trigger so long as I'm engaging targets while I'm doing so. What are your thoughts on this?

For the purposes of the rules, and safety for that matter, there is a huge difference between a sight picture (a simulated engagement on a target) and moving from location to location - or - as someone suggested previously, reloading. I'd need to understand more of why you think there is no difference between them, when I believe and have shown there clearly is...

Thanks for this part of the conversation.

From our safety briefing. " if you are not actively engaging the target ( shooting at it) and your finger is in the trigger well you will be DQ'ed." Moving from Point A to Point B and finger is in the trigger well it's a DQ unless you are shooting at the target. Reloading with the finger in the trigger well and you will get DQ'ed. Stand in the box with a loaded gun taking a sight picture and your finger is in the trigger well you are done for the day. While I can't find in the rule book stating unequivocally that having a finger in the trigger well of a loaded gun and taking a sight picture is wrong I can deduce that if it's a DQ'able offense to reload with your finger in the trigger well or move from one point to another without engaging a target and your finger is in the trigger well then taking a sight picture with a loaded gun and your finger in the trigger well is also an offense deserving of a DQ. That's my stance. You can agree or disagree with it.

[wgnoyes]

Then as a section coordinator, if I found a section club making up rules like that, I'd talk to the club president to convince him he/she needs to run USPSA matches by the USPSA rulebook. If they were stubborn about it, I'd bring my area director in on it. If that failed, I'd bring in NROI Director John Amidon. Maybe a few other RMI's. Maybe even Phil Strader. And if after all of that, the club was still running USPSA matches under "WTG" rules or any other local made-up ruleset and just absolutely would not listen to reason, I'd have to regretfully recommend that club for disaffiliation to the USPSA BoD.

[vluc]

WTG, what clubs do you shoot at?

[Skydiver]

From our safety briefing. " if you are not actively engaging the target ( shooting at it) and your finger is in the trigger well you will be DQ'ed." Moving from Point A to Point B and finger is in the trigger well it's a DQ unless you are shooting at the target. Reloading with the finger in the trigger well and you will get DQ'ed. Stand in the box with a loaded gun taking a sight picture and your finger is in the trigger well you are done for the day. While I can't find in the rule book stating unequivocally that having a finger in the trigger well of a loaded gun and taking a sight picture is wrong I can deduce that if it's a DQ'able offense to reload with your finger in the trigger well or move from one point to another without engaging a target and your finger is in the trigger well then taking a sight picture with a loaded gun and your finger in the trigger well is also an offense deserving of a DQ. That's my stance. You can agree or disagree with it.

Oh! Suddenly that sheds some light on the question you posted a few months ago about Production shooters without decockers, and how would they decock their guns at "Make Ready", and we pointed you to the 10.5.9 exception. Does that mean your club doesn't honor the 10.5.9 exception?

Also back in post #50, I posed these following situations where the shooter was not actively shooting at the target. Would these also be DQ's at your club:

- a shooter at the end of his run discovers a steel target has not fallen from his last shot, so he brings the gun back up again and takes aim at the popper, and then he decides not to fire.

- in a fixed time course the shooter is about ready to squeeze the trigger, but lets off the trigger because she hears the second buzzer go off.

I think Bill Noyes approach is right on the money.

[remoandiris]

WTG, what clubs do you shoot at?

I have a feeling you will receive an ambiguous answer...if at all.

[vluc]

WTG, what clubs do you shoot at?

I have a feeling you will receive an ambiguous answer...if at all.

I do believe you may be correct, sir! We get no club info from her, can't seem to find a USPSA number nor do we see any other people popping up who may also shoot where she shoots - and if it is Texas, we have a goodly number of folks from the great Republic of Texas on the forum who have not chimed in at all. Beginning to wonder if she truly exists or is a "composite" shooter.

Edited May 14, 2012 by vluc

[Chuck Anderson]

At LAMR, the shooter has begun the course of fire. If he drops the gun, DQ, if he breaks the 180 during the load, DQ. All the safety protections are in place once the RO says, Make Ready. If the shooter is (a) standing at the start position, ( pointing a gun at a target, ©with a loaded gun (d) finger on the trigger (e) during the course of fire how is this somehow unsafe when momentarily a tiny buzzer will go off and the shooter will be (a) standing at the start position, ( pointing a gun at a target, ©with a loaded gun (d) finger on the trigger (e) during the course of fire.

To say that one is a DQable offense and the other is clearly not, makes no sense, and is in opposition to the clearly stated rules in the rule book. If I thought you were truthful that a club was doing that I would be concerned. And like other clubs that have made up their own safety, or other rules in my area I would explain the discrepancy to them and instruct them that they need to do things in accordance with the rule book or I will remove their USPSA sanction. It's very simple and something I've never had to do. Reasonable folks can read and understand the rules as they are written.

As far as the trunk thing...well you're wrong. They may have been doing it for 20 years, but it's not a spotless track record. I'm aware of at least two, at the trunk AD's, one during an action shooting event, the other not. The second was at a range that shoots USPSA but it was not a match day. The individual in the second event died as a result of his injury. You can argue that point all you want. You're not going to convince me that handling firearms at your vehicle is as safe as handling them at a safe area.

And that's all my troll feeding for May

[motosapiens]

We actually shoot guns at targets, so why would aiming at a target and not shooting a gun be dangerous?

Reload with the finger in the trigger well you get the DQ

Move with your finger in the trigger well and you get the DQ

So explain the difference between the above infractions to taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with your finger in the trigger well. There is none and it should be a DQ offense.

There is a major difference in that in the first two actions the muzzle may not be pointed in a completely safe direction. It might be pointed at a metal prop nearby, or over the berm, for example.

Edited May 14, 2012 by motosapiens

[Floyd D. Barber]

Wouldn't 10.5.9 cover this?

[aztecdriver]

Wouldn't 10.5.9 cover this?

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

Here it is - how does it apply to taking a sight picture with a loaded handgun - and placing your finger in the trigger guard.?

[Floyd D. Barber]

Wouldn't 10.5.9 cover this?

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

Here it is - how does it apply to taking a sight picture with a loaded handgun - and placing your finger in the trigger guard.?

It applies if you have your finger inside the trigger guard and you are not making ready and lowering the hammer.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Floyd D. Barber

[aztecdriver]

Wouldn't 10.5.9 cover this?

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

Here it is - how does it apply to taking a sight picture with a loaded handgun - and placing your finger in the trigger guard.?

It applies if you have your finger inside the trigger guard and you are not making ready and lowering the hammer.

No. This is not correct. Make Ready doesn't not constitute only the loading procedure. As was already pointed out - loading, reloading and unloading is already present in the glossary. I'm not performing ANY of these tasks when I'm taking a sight picture on a target - therefore you can't use 10.5.9.

[Bear23]

[aztecdriver]

Time to bring this thread back do to an interesting example experience I had during a recent major.

A noticeably experienced shooter (someone I knew) comes to the line for his run. "Make Ready". as I watch the routine, here is what I see...

Shooting a Glock. Rack slide. Insert magazine. Holster. Draw, Index on target, dryfire. Rack slide and holster. Assume the ready position... "are you ready"...

I immediately thought of the applicability of this thread. One could point to the risk one might run with this routine - let's leave that out of it. It was clear to the comfort level of the shooter that this was well ingrained in his process and after talking with him, he'd never recommend it to someone as they would run the risk of a shot. I must admit I paid particular attention after they racked the slide and didn't drop the hammer, then inserted the magazine.

[PKT1106]

here is what I see...Shooting a Glock. Rack slide. Insert magazine. Holster. Draw, Index on target, dryfire. Rack slide and holster.

It's a probablility that someday he will get complacent because he has done it so many times and there will be an ND or AD during that process. Nothing against the shooter, its human factors and ergonomic design type stuff. There are 3 types of actions:

1. Knowledge Based - This should actually be called "Lack or Knowledge Based" because you are going off your own experience with something new and interpreting things incorrectly. IE: New shooter breaking down a stage. Error rate is 1 in 10 times.

2. Rule Based - There is a defined process and set of rules to follow for a proceedure. IE: No finger in the trigger guard during reloads. Error rate is 1 in 100

3. Skill Based - You have done a particular proceedure more times than you can remember and are basically ingrained with the steps involved. Error rate is 1 in 1000.

Your friend is definitely skill based, but because of the steps involved, there are holes in their layers of protection against and AD or ND, namely that they insert a full magazine and pull the trigger, even though there is not a round chambered. One day, they will do something out of order and there WILL be a round in the chamber.

[aztecdriver]

here is what I see...Shooting a Glock. Rack slide. Insert magazine. Holster. Draw, Index on target, dryfire. Rack slide and holster.

It's a probablility that someday he will get complacent because he has done it so many times and there will be an ND or AD during that process. Nothing against the shooter, its human factors and ergonomic design type stuff. There are 3 types of actions:

1. Knowledge Based - This should actually be called "Lack or Knowledge Based" because you are going off your own experience with something new and interpreting things incorrectly. IE: New shooter breaking down a stage. Error rate is 1 in 10 times.

2. Rule Based - There is a defined process and set of rules to follow for a proceedure. IE: No finger in the trigger guard during reloads. Error rate is 1 in 100

3. Skill Based - You have done a particular proceedure more times than you can remember and are basically ingrained with the steps involved. Error rate is 1 in 1000.

Your friend is definitely skill based, but because of the steps involved, there are holes in their layers of protection against and AD or ND, namely that they insert a full magazine and pull the trigger, even though there is not a round chambered. One day, they will do something out of order and there WILL be a round in the chamber.

And the point of the original addition was not to debate whether the practice is inviting the chance of an AD. We already know this, and I don't think we can get further discussion on whether it's wise. The case that you make, though, is basically the same thing for anything we do during the COF. That's why we tell people there are those that have and those that will DQ.

The point to the example, which is one I'd never considered, is that the loaded sight picture can actually have a legitimate reason to not only have a finger in the guard, but actually actuate the trigger, and still be perfectly legal.

[PKT1106]

The point to the example, which is one I'd never considered, is that the loaded sight picture can actually have a legitimate reason to not only have a finger in the guard, but actually actuate the trigger, and still be perfectly legal.

Problem with the example you give is that he is not technically taking a loaded sight picture. There may be rounds in the mag, but none in the chamber.

[aztecdriver]

The point to the example, which is one I'd never considered, is that the loaded sight picture can actually have a legitimate reason to not only have a finger in the guard, but actually actuate the trigger, and still be perfectly legal.

Problem with the example you give is that he is not technically taking a loaded sight picture. There may be rounds in the mag, but none in the chamber.

Most decidedly, by definition, they are:

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.