DQ offense for finger in trigger guard during Make Ready

[waktasz]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

Pointing a gun at a target and not firing is dangerous?

Imagine the carnage unleashed once the buzzer goes off and the gunfire actually starts! :D

[West Texas Granny]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.

Guess you missed the "loaded gun" part in my post.

[Jon Merricks]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.

Guess you missed the "loaded gun" part in my post.

No they did not miss it.

[spanky]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.

Guess you missed the "loaded gun" part in my post.

No I did not.

[West Texas Granny]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.

Guess you missed the "loaded gun" part in my post.

No I did not.

Then you agree that it's unsafe for the finger to be in the trigger well of a loaded gun while taking a sight picture.

[waktasz]

We actually shoot guns at targets, so why would aiming at a target and not shooting a gun be dangerous?

[aztecdriver]

Then you agree that it's unsafe for the finger to be in the trigger well of a loaded gun while taking a sight picture.

I don't know where you take a "sight picture", but I usually take one on a target that's visible from the start position. The only thing different about "sight picturing" and actually "shooting" the target is before or after the start signal. There's absolutely NOTHING unsafe about it.

Maybe you could try and impart some of your infinite wisdom as to WHY it would be unsafe.... that's right - let's hear some reason.

Maybe this is like the safe area discussion we had --- remember, you kept talking about safe areas were the place to load ammunition - because it was "safe" and then 15 posts later you reveal your safe area was the trunk of your car?

How about you tell us what your process for sight picture is so we can see why you may be considering having my finger on the trigger while pointing at a target that I could draw and shoot from where I'm starting is dangerous.

ETA- Yes, the above does smack of sarcasm mixed with a *little* disdain - I thought, though that my intent would come out a little clearer. The last 7 posts are basically saying, no you're not - yes I am, back and forth.

So far, they are right - you are wrong - by the rulebook. And so far, by rational reasoning - as you have yet to explain your reasoning. This is my second attempt as to get you to instead of stating something you appear to believe is incontrovertible fact and to give us your reasoning behind it. This isn't something as simple as you are calling the sky red - though it appears that way to us.... help us out.

Edited May 3, 2012 by aztecdriver

[PKT1106]

I think its dangerous because it can lead to bad habits of having the finger on the trigger during the loading process itself. If it is a dq-able offense to have the finger in the trigger guard during a reload, why not during make ready while taking a loaded sight picture?

Edited May 3, 2012 by PKT1106

[aztecdriver]

I think its dangerous because it can lead to bad habits of having the finger on the trigger during the loading process itself. If it is a dq-able offense to have the finger in the trigger guard during a reload, why not during make ready while taking a loaded sight picture?

Great! Thanks for the point of view! Here's my issue with your point. A sight picture is a simulated engagement of a target. When I present to a target, my finger goes to the trigger, as it should. I'm going to want to do that, whether I'm loaded or not. The rules permit me to do so - it just does not permit me to actually fire. If I've got a single action gun with the safety applied - i better have if I put the gun in my holster before I take the sight picture - I can touch the trigger and be fine. The important point is that I'm presenting on a target and placing the finger on the trigger, even prepping the trigger can be part of the sight picture process.

The bad habit portion is still a bad habit - just because it happens AFTER I load the pistol, it's not part of the loading or reloading process - it's part of presenting on a target. This comes from considering all of 8.3.1 - MAKE READY - as the process of loading. It's not - after the gun is loaded - loading is over. I don't do this, but if I want to draw the pistol to feel the weight and see what my sight alignment is like to get a muscle memory of the draw - and I touch the trigger without firing - I'm all good.

[spanky]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.

Guess you missed the "loaded gun" part in my post.

No I did not.

Then you agree that it's unsafe for the finger to be in the trigger well of a loaded gun while taking a sight picture.

No I do not.

[vluc]

I think its dangerous because it can lead to bad habits of having the finger on the trigger during the loading process itself. If it is a dq-able offense to have the finger in the trigger guard during a reload, why not during make ready while taking a loaded sight picture?

I disagree it is dangerous - but could we not say that for almost every action we do in this sport? Until the rulebook changes to define having the finger in the trigger guard during a sight picture as a dq (God, I hope not), it is fine and no more dangerous than anything else we do, like flip n' catch (IMHO).

What is next, only running at a certain speed just in case you happen to trip or fall? Or not running at all? Maybe we get rid of the 180 rule and make it 160 just in case somebody might get into the bad habit of getting close to the 180? Somebody somewhere will consider those unsafe.

Edited May 3, 2012 by vluc

[vluc]

Then you agree that it's unsafe for the finger to be in the trigger well of a loaded gun while taking a sight picture.

I don't know where you take a "sight picture", but I usually take one on a target that's visible from the start position. The only thing different about "sight picturing" and actually "shooting" the target is before or after the start signal. There's absolutely NOTHING unsafe about it.

Maybe you could try and impart some of your infinite wisdom as to WHY it would be unsafe.... that's right - let's hear some reason.

Maybe this is like the safe area discussion we had --- remember, you kept talking about safe areas were the place to load ammunition - because it was "safe" and then 15 posts later you reveal your safe area was the trunk of your car?

How about you tell us what your process for sight picture is so we can see why you may be considering having my finger on the trigger while pointing at a target that I could draw and shoot from where I'm starting is dangerous.

ETA- Yes, the above does smack of sarcasm mixed with a *little* disdain - I thought, though that my intent would come out a little clearer. The last 7 posts are basically saying, no you're not - yes I am, back and forth.

So far, they are right - you are wrong - by the rulebook. And so far, by rational reasoning - as you have yet to explain your reasoning. This is my second attempt as to get you to instead of stating something you appear to believe is incontrovertible fact and to give us your reasoning behind it. This isn't something as simple as you are calling the sky red - though it appears that way to us.... help us out.

I'm hearing west texas crickets chirping here....

[Chills1994]

[Jadeslade]

Love it. Thought of that immediately. Maybe West Texas G. hasn't seen this.

[Skydiver]

I think that a loaded sight picture complete with putting the finger in the trigger guard is perfectly legal and safe. If it goes BANG! then we have rules for that.

I'm trying very hard to look at things from the other side of the argument to see if there is anything to glean from it, but I'm failing utterly. Only if I push the limits of imagination can I see an unsafe condition where a shooter is given the "Make Ready" command while there are still people downrange. In that case, though, there have been multiple failures: the RO didn't ensure that the range was clear; the clipboard RO was busy messing with the paperwork; the shooter didn't know what was his target and what is beyond it. As I said, I'm finding it pretty hard to see the situation and I'm the one who always seems to try people's patience with my far out scenarios. I'd love to hear/learn how it would be unsafe to take a loaded sight picture with the finger in the trigger guard before the "Start Signal", but safe after the "Start Signal".

Edited May 3, 2012 by Skydiver

[Jim Norman]

Does anyone here know who WTG is?

[Jon Merricks]

Does anyone here know who WTG is?

Would knowing the identity bring more merit to the post?

[Jim Norman]

I do believe that except where your safety or livelihood are at stake, hiding behind a screen name reduces your standing. Many of the people here have a screen name, but have their real name in their profile. Others are known in real life by their screen names, sort of like a nickname.

If you area a casual poster asking a question, it is not a big deal, but when you continuously question and argue against just about everything, it would be interesting to know where you are coming from. Are you a real competitor/shooter? are you a troll using an online persona to cause dissension in the ranks, or to mine for information that can be used to damage us?

Where are all the unsafe actions actually taking place? we might think that this is a 45-70 YO 'granny somewhere in West Texas, for all we know this person is in Hong Kong, or Washington DC or London England and is looking at ways to attack USPSA on safety issues.

Once or twice questioning a position or asking a question is not a red flag, but doing so over and over with little to support your positions makes one wonder.

[Chills1994]

he (she?) I think hails from Washington state and/or the Pacific Northwest since he (she?) has spoken on in length and detail about a particular range's issue in that area.

everything else you said gets a big plus 1 from me.

If I ever come across as troll-ish or as combative as he (she?) does on this forum (that's this forum), please somebody kick me in the shins at the next match.

I know I have my opinions, and I freely give them. certainly, there are some things I would like to change about USPSA, but in reality, it ain't worth wasting the bandwith here for me to pontificate about them. and I'll never run for a slot where my opinion would amount to a hill of beans, anyway.

[OUshooter]

I think the OP's question has been sufficiently answered. As to WTG, if you don't feed the trolls they will wither and die.

[Chills1994]

there is always the ignore member feature too, which works really well when the rest of the folks do NOT quote that person in their reply.

[West Texas Granny]

We actually shoot guns at targets, so why would aiming at a target and not shooting a gun be dangerous?

Reload with the finger in the trigger well you get the DQ

Move with your finger in the trigger well and you get the DQ

So explain the difference between the above infractions to taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with your finger in the trigger well. There is none and it should be a DQ offense.

Edited May 6, 2012 by West Texas Granny

[West Texas Granny]

We actually shoot guns at targets, so why would aiming at a target and not shooting a gun be dangerous?

Reload with the finger in the trigger well you get the DQ

Move with your finger in the trigger well and you get the DQ

So explain the difference between the above infractions to taking a sight picture with a load gun with your finger in the trigger well. There is none and it should be a DQ offense.

Want to take a sight picture then do it before loading the gun otherwise it's an unsafe act.

[Chills1994]

Email your area director, WTG, if you feel that strongly about it and have him bring it up for a vote at the next BoD meeting.

[Skydiver]

We actually shoot guns at targets, so why would aiming at a target and not shooting a gun be dangerous?

Reload with the finger in the trigger well you get the DQ

Move with your finger in the trigger well and you get the DQ

So explain the difference between the above infractions to taking a sight picture with a load gun with your finger in the trigger well. There is none and it should be a DQ offense.

Want to take a sight picture then do it before loading the gun otherwise it's an unsafe act.

So my understanding is that from your point of view, a finger in the trigger guard without at intent to fire a round is a DQ. Following that logic the following two situations would then also be DQ's:

- a shooter at the end of his run discovers a steel target has not fallen from his last shot, so he brings the gun back up again and takes aim at the popper, and then he decides not to fire.

- in a fixed time course the shooter is about ready to squeeze the trigger, but lets off the trigger because she hears the second buzzer go off.

The differences between the loaded sight picture and reload/movement with the finger in the trigger guard are:

1) There are rules in the rulebook making the reload/movement with a finger in the trigger guard a DQ, while there is no rule for the loaded sight picture.

2) The reload/movement with the finger in the trigger guard will typically not have the gun pointed at an intended and legal target array, while the loaded sight picture is at a target array.

As I understand it, the reason the rulebook lists the reload/movement with a finger in the trigger guard as a DQ is to build up layers of protection in USPSA's "belt and suspenders" approach to safety. I read from you comments that you'd like taking a loaded sight picture to be prohibited because it is unsafe, but how does in then become safe after the start signal?