ducati Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 I have been squaded with the same people at the last 2 Idpa matches. 2 of the people are using Paras with 10 rd mags filled to capacity. I noticed this after watching them shoot several stages and their slide lock reloads were not the same as mine. I wonder if this is a real concern to anybody? What should be done? Maybe they don't know the rules? maybe they do. The club puts on great matches, and the ROs do a great job of running the squads. I know they can't catch every thing. Running 112 shooters makes for a busy day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 CDP is 8 rounds capacity. If they are shooting 10 rounds in CDP & the SO's have not noticed it, then you have the choice to accept it or drop dime on them. Or point it out to the shooters and see if they correct themselves. However, I have seen a few guys shoot Para LDA .45 guns in SSP which permits them to shoot 10 rounds. That may be what they are doing. Won't know till you ask. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 And if they are .40s, then they are in ESP and again, the 10rds is okay. But if they declared in CDP, then it's 8rds only. And where the heck are you getting 112 shooters for a club level match? That's mind boggling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ducati Posted July 10, 2004 Author Share Posted July 10, 2004 Yes 112 shooters. Linden Sportsman Club in Michigan. Always put on great matches. They are shooting cdp. I just looked up the scores again. I thought they might be shooting esp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 Sounds like cheating to me. Or possibly ignorance. Whatever, it needs to be rectified, I think. I'm really surprised the SOs didn't catch this, or one of the other competitors. At my club we/they're pretty hip to stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Just checked out their website (Linden Sportsman's Club). They do seem to draw about 100 - 120 FOR A CLUB MATCH. Holy crap batman! Anyway, for a match to be this big, and this kinda stuff to not be caught is a little strange. Ducati, if you talk to the MD, let us know how this works out. I'd like to come shoot with you guys (but I'm not ready to give away 2 rounds) Geek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsimpso1 Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 The matches at Linden are pretty good ones too. They have several bays, break things into morning and afternnon squads, are well organized, and they just roll. I too will keep an eye out for people loading 10 rounds and then claiming CDP. Billski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 2 rounds can make a HUGE difference in IDPA, especially in CDP. I'd call them on it, if they are new and don't really know the rules yet, perhaps a friendly reminder is all that's needed. If they DO know the rules and are still doing it, I would either 1. Bump them into ESP or 2. Give a FTDR. It's cheating, plain and simple. Part of playing the game is knowing the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 2 rounds is a huge difference especially if you have a 18 round stage, one less reload. You can always sk the match director to announce that CDP is 8 rounds only at the shooter meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Ten rounds (vs. eight) is one of the main reasons why top SSP times in big matches are often lower than those in CDP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 If they DO know the rules and are still doing it, I would either 1. Bump them into ESP or 2. Give a FTDR. It's cheating, plain and simple. There's really no provision for putting someone shooting a .45 into ESP. The FTDR, on the other hand, was made for situations like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Not to sound like a DQ nazi, but isnt that something you can DQ them for, or just be nice about it, tell them that your only supposed to load 8+1 and give them a USPSA membership application as for the 45 in ESP, while it wouldnt be particularly wise to do it, but i suppose you could...like you can shoot a glock 21 in ssp, esp and cdp.. i personally dont know why they limite CDP to 45 ACP,10mm or 400 cor-bon caliber pistols,,, no GAP, I mean you have 165 pf, and limited to 8+1 so why a 45?? factory 40s in a para make the 165 easy, i dont know what bil wil was thinking (or was he??) but it certainly makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 i personally dont know why they limite CDP to 45 ACP,10mm or 400 cor-bon caliber pistols,,, no GAP, I mean you have 165 pf, and limited to 8+1 so why a 45?? factory 40s in a para make the 165 easy, CDP is 45 acp ONLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWFlorida DPS Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 i personally dont know why they limite CDP to 45 ACP,10mm or 400 cor-bon caliber pistols,,, no GAP, I mean you have 165 pf, and limited to 8+1 so why a 45?? factory 40s in a para make the 165 easy, CDP is 45 acp ONLY. And ESP is anything except .45.. So he couldn't shoot there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 I have been squaded with the same people at the last 2 Idpa matches. 2 of the people are using Paras with 10 rd mags filled to capacity. I noticed this after watching them shoot several stages and their slide lock reloads were not the same as mine. I wonder if this is a real concern to anybody? What should be done? Maybe they don't know the rules? maybe they do. The club puts on great matches, and the ROs do a great job of running the squads. I know they can't catch every thing. Running 112 shooters makes for a busy day Aha, gamers errrr cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 Nicely tell them it is a no-no, and if they do it again they will be chopped into little pieces, boiled in oil, run over by a truck, and the remains dumped in a sewer. Or at least that they will get a FTDR next time. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 2 rounds can make a HUGE difference in IDPA, especially in CDP. I'd call them on it, if they are new and don't really know the rules yet, perhaps a friendly reminder is all that's needed. If they DO know the rules and are still doing it, I would either 1. Bump them into ESP or 2. Give a FTDR. It's cheating, plain and simple.Part of playing the game is knowing the rules. rule 3: Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director. If these guys are deliberately loading 10 rds for CDP : DQ them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 as for the 45 in ESP, while it wouldnt be particularly wise to do it, but i suppose you could...like you can shoot a glock 21 in ssp, esp and cdp. From the IDPA Rule Book: Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL division must be Single Action or selective SA/DA and be of 9mm (9x19), (9x21), (9x23), .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .41 AE, 10mm Norma, .400 Cor-Bon and meet the following criteria: Pistol including empty magazine must fit in a box measuring 8 3/4" x 6" x 1 5/8" and have a maximum unloaded weight of 43 oz. To reduce cost and provide a level playing field for all pistols permitted, the maximum number of rounds that may be loaded in a magazine is ten (10). NON-INCLUSIVE list of pistols permitted: (These are just examples of pistols that meet ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL DIVISION requirements and is NOT meant to be a definitive list of approved pistols.) Browning HP, CZ-75, EAA Witness, Colt Govt., Commander, Glock 17, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 31, 34, 35, H&K P7, Springfield 1911A1, Military 1911 and 1911A1, AMT Hardballer, Auto Ordnance 1911A1, STI/SVI, Para Ordnance .38 super/.40 S&W pistols, Smith & Wesson Performance Center 9mm, 356TSW & 40 Limited, PPC. NOTE: Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP and CDP depending upon caliber. Don't see any Para .45s on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 or Glock 21's for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Like the book says.. it's not a total list... and 9 mm & .40 caliber Glocks and Paras are AOK for ESP.... (almost all the Glocks can shoot in multiple catagories) I know of at least a half dozen regular shooters at Linden that shoot .40 Paras... so they can use the same gun in the limited class of IPSC. There are also a sizable number of people shooting 9 mm 1911s in ESP... and they use 10 round mags too. (I had more than one SO "freak" when I was shooting that type gun) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suggest that if this really is shooters in CDP.... you just quietly mention it to the Rick (the MD) before the squad starts... have him alert the SOs.... and the rest will be history. I'm going to send him a link to this site so he'll be "on notice" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now how about those guys shooting WAY down loaded ammo????? A couple Linden regulars shoot .45s that barely penetrate the cardboard.... and one rather heavy gentleman shoots a .38 Super loaded so soft you can see the bullet in the air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Like the book says.. it's not a total list... and 9 mm & .40 caliber Glocks and Paras are AOK for ESP True. But we're discussing whether a Para or Glock .45 can be shot in ESP. And the answer is, "No." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkyte Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I have been squaded with the same people at the last 2 Idpa matches. 2 of the people are using Paras with 10 rd mags filled to capacity. I noticed this after watching them shoot several stages and their slide lock reloads were not the same as mine. I wonder if this is a real concern to anybody? What should be done? Maybe they don't know the rules? maybe they do. The club puts on great matches, and the ROs do a great job of running the squads. I know they can't catch every thing. Running 112 shooters makes for a busy day As a SO at these matches, I have to say it is possible that this has happened to me. When I am running a shooter, I am watching the gun for safety problems. I am assuming that the shooter is following the rules for his division. I guess I am naive. In the future, I will be looking for division gamers. I don't see the point in doing something like this. It's like cheating at solitare. For a $.35 ribbon, I wouldn't do it. For a $5 plaque, I'd steal my mother's gold tooth. Ducati is right. A hundred plus shooters is a long day. At the end, I just glad to see the last shooter and have no holes in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I think I'd be so happy to see 100 shooters at a club match every month that minor rules infractions wouldn't bother me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I think I'd be so happy to see 100 shooters at a club match every month that minor rules infractions wouldn't bother me! I think 30-40 is about right. I really don't like to leave for the range at 7am and get home 12 hrs later. Kinda takes the fun out of IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 That's definitely true. If you have 100 shooters, it sounds like it would be good to have two or three start times and the same number of SOs and clipboard wranglers if you can manage it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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