Moving up to Master

[TacticalReload]

So what do you guys recommend when it comes to trying to move up from Expert to Master? I just shot the classifier three times this weekend and ended up as EX in SSP, ESP, and SSR. I know that in general I'll have to start working on shaving time off every aspect of the process, but does anyone have any tips on what specifically to focus on to get you over the top? Maybe something that you see as often distinguishing the masters from the experts?

[kaiserb]

So what do you guys recommend when it comes to trying to move up from Expert to Master? I just shot the classifier three times this weekend and ended up as EX in SSP, ESP, and SSR. I know that in general I'll have to start working on shaving time off every aspect of the process, but does anyone have any tips on what specifically to focus on to get you over the top? Maybe something that you see as often distinguishing the masters from the experts?

You really need to know your times to know what to improve.

What were your transition times at 7, 10, 20 yards?

Draw to first shot?

Split times?

Reloads?

How was your accuracy?

For example you could have been 0 down on the classifier but took way to long to transition.

Conversely you could have been fast as lightning on the draw and reload but 75 points dow.

[waktasz]

Drop less points.

Or go shoot a sanctioned match and win

[lugnut]

The classifier tests a wide variety of skills. In addition to good draws and transitions and other things, the biggies are the head shots and stage 3. Can't miss the head shots and can't drop many points on stage 3. Any down 3s or misses will just about kill you if you are close to master now.

As an example- on my recent ESR Master run my stage 3 adjusted time was 38.93s or about 40% of the total classifier time. Stage one was clean with good times as well. If my memory serves me correct you will have trouble making master without being at or below 40s total on stage 3.

What is your break down of times for EX?

Also- if you want to make Master quicker... dump the two other guns and stick with one for a while. Trust me on this....

[CDPMatt]

Shoot a Sanctioned match and win SSP or ESP EX.... that's how I did it. I suck at the classifier though.

Edited March 22, 2012 by CDPMatt

[jason237m]

Shoot a Sanctioned match and win SSP or ESP EX.... that's how I did it. I suck at the classifier though.

Agreed. Making master in a classifier is really boring anyway. Classify up to expert and get a bump in a sanctioned match. Of course that doesn't apply to the revos since (sadly) there are never enough shooters.

[lugnut]

Shoot a Sanctioned match and win SSP or ESP EX.... that's how I did it. I suck at the classifier though.

Agreed. Making master in a classifier is really boring anyway. Classify up to expert and get a bump in a sanctioned match. Of course that doesn't apply to the revos since (sadly) there are never enough shooters.

On Revos yes it is sad, but there just aren't any major matches to get a bump for the most part. However in a classifier you don't have to depend on how others shoot at a match to get bumped. You might get bumped because you happened to be the best shooter that showed up that day... or the people that showed up that day just weren't that great. It's really nice when you get bumped and can back it up with a classifier.

[TacticalReload]

When I shot the classifier, I used the same gun / ammo for SSP and ESP.

The first time my scores for the 3 stages (SSP) were:

stage 1: 37.08 (includes 35.08 sec with 4 points down)

stage 2: 27.34 (includes 26.84 sec with 1 point down)

stage 3: 51.30 (includes 44.30 sec with 14 points down)

total: 115.72

The second time my scores were (ESP):

stage 1: 32.79 (0 points down)

stage 2: 30.25 (29.75 sec plus 1 point down)

stage 3: 41.68 (37.18 sec plus 9 points down)

(I know that if I had the actual time breakdown per string, that would be better; but I am having difficulty finding the paper I wrote them down on.)

My SSR times were not as good and barely into Expert class. I haven't shot a classifier in SSR in about 5 years and was a SS before. Sadly, I'm a revolver shooter at heart and would probably prefer to shoot only revolver because I enjoy it more. However there is often so little competition in SSR / ESR that it's not worth it, IMO.

As you can see, while shooting more accurately will of course help everyone, it's probably not the primary issue that I have since shaving off points will still not get me into master. My splits could use some work when I'm transitioning from body to head shots since I do slow down to ensure a head hit. My transitions are also okay but not fantastic... especially at 7 yards.

During practice, I find that my two biggest problems are probably the time from buzzer to first shot and shooting accurately on stage 3 without taking too much time. Actually, I've tried ramping up the speed to see how I do, but there seems like there is a point where my accuracy suddenly goes in the toilet. It's like if I shoot any faster than that point, my accuracy goes from very good to abysmal instantly. For example, I tried shooting the classifier a couple of weeks ago and went faster than I'm comfortable to see how that worked out; but I ended up performing terribly because my accuracy was so bad. I shot stages 2 & 3 about 30% faster but dropped a ton of points... the net effect was actually slipping into sharpshooter time.

As for getting a bump at a major match, it'll probably be harder than to improve my times through the classifier. I hate to be cynical but (assuming that my match day performance doesn't lag far behind my classifier performance) there seems to be tons of sandbaggers at major matches. At least for me, while I seem to do okay at classifiers and local matches, once I get to a major and compete against a lot of folks who I haven't seen before, I seem to not be able to stand up to their scores. But like I said, maybe it's just me and I put out subpar major match performances... which could be the case since I haven't shot many of them.

I'm sure the bottom line is that I haven't classified as Master yet because I'm not a master class shooter with master class skill... however, I'm just wondering what I can work on to get there. With the cost of ammo these days, I have to make every round count for something because I can't afford to just be throwing lead downrange for no good reason.

[Strick]

In the SSP run stage 3 hurt but stage 1 killed you. In the ESP run stage 2-3 look OK for where you seem to be (3 is solid) but again stage 1 is killing you.

[lugnut]

TR- I'd say you are pretty close in SSP. Focus on this for now. I hear you on the revo thing- it is fun but not when there are only a few of you! Hell at the Indoor Nats I was the only ESR Master... other than Jerry- I was almost embarrassed to get 1st Master. Anyways- without knowing the times of the strings I'd say you are probably correct in assessing you weakness- draw times/transitions and stage 3. That being said you are REAL close. Your second run on stage 3 was pretty good. Stage 1 and Stage 2 could be faster as well.... maybe your draws/transitions are something to keep working on.... I'm guessing you have enough accuracy.

Here's the thing. When you practice- you need to push yourself at times and eventually as long as you keep executing well (meaning fundamentals) you will improve. I think pushing yourself 30% is way too much though. It's hard to put numbers on it but don't go that hard often. Push yourself 10-20% at times. Sure- you will drop points but eventually with enough practice you will see things "faster" and get good hits as well. I've shot with a guy for a while that just made Expert. He's a very good shooter but he doesn't push himself for speed. He told me that when he does he drops points like crazy.... well duh!!! It's not just a switch that you turn on and start shooting like Master... it takes time.

I will say I've seen many people make Expert with little practice. Making Master usually takes some focused work- whether it's dry fire or more live fire. I hate dry firing... but I will say that when I do- it's on draws and reloads at a minimum. It works. Use a timer as well. Good luck.

[steel1212]

Those where my last times that I shot the classifier. I think I was down 1 point on stage 1, a couple on stage 2 and about 8 or so on stage 3

Stage 1 25.38

Stage 2 21.47

Stage 3 35.07

Edited March 22, 2012 by steel1212

[lugnut]

Those where my last times that I shot the classifier. I think I was down 1 point on stage 1, a couple on stage 2 and about 8 or so on stage 3

Stage 1 25.38

Stage 2 21.47

Stage 3 35.07

Damn that was a nice run!!!

Here is my best run on ESP- before I got a match bump. I was down 22 points total! TR- I think you will see that the proportions/ratios are similar.

Stage 1 27.44

Stage 2 23.99

Stage 3 38.13

[Strick]

Those where my last times that I shot the classifier. I think I was down 1 point on stage 1, a couple on stage 2 and about 8 or so on stage 3

Stage 1 25.38

Stage 2 21.47

Stage 3 35.07

That is almost identical to my last run, even down to the points down.

[TacticalReload]

In the SSP run stage 3 hurt but stage 1 killed you. In the ESP run stage 2-3 look OK for where you seem to be (3 is solid) but again stage 1 is killing you.

That's kind of why I think the draws are the problem since stage 1 is where all the draws are.

[Strick]

DO you know what your draw time is? Starting to practice draws, splits, transitions and recording those times is the first step to improving. You have to have a starting point of actual data, not just a feeling.

The way I break down the strages to make MA is .....

Stage 1: 25 seconds or less

String 1-3 - 2 seconds

4 - 4 seconds

5 - 3 seconds

6 - 6 seconds

7 - 4.5 seconds

Total 23.5 seconds and leaves a little room for points but no misses

Stage 2: 25 seconds or less

1 - 4 sec

2 - 4 sec

3 - 7.5 sec

4 - 5 sec

Total of 20.5 and leaves a little room for points

Stage 3: 40 seconds or less

1 - 13

2 - 15

3 - 5

Total of 33 seconds with plenty of room for points as long as you can still hit mostly -0 & -1's

[TacticalReload]

I'm not sure what my draw time is but string 1-3 on stage one is in the ballpark of 2.5-2.8. So I'm figuring my draw is too slow. I guess I'll have to get faster at that.

[kevin c]

Drop less points.

Or go shoot a sanctioned match and win

This (both of them).

I shoot Master times in SSP, but missed out the last two times I shot the Classifier because I had nice tight 5 to 6 inch goups on stage three, all just below the down zero zone....

Edited March 23, 2012 by kevin c

[John Z Sr]

When I shot the classifier, I used the same gun / ammo for SSP and ESP.

The first time my scores for the 3 stages (SSP) were:

stage 1: 37.08 (includes 35.08 sec with 4 points down)

stage 2: 27.34 (includes 26.84 sec with 1 point down)

stage 3: 51.30 (includes 44.30 sec with 14 points down)

total: 115.72

The second time my scores were (ESP):

stage 1: 32.79 (0 points down)

stage 2: 30.25 (29.75 sec plus 1 point down)

stage 3: 41.68 (37.18 sec plus 9 points down)

(I know that if I had the actual time breakdown per string, that would be better; but I am having difficulty finding the paper I wrote them down on.)

My SSR times were not as good and barely into Expert class. I haven't shot a classifier in SSR in about 5 years and was a SS before. Sadly, I'm a revolver shooter at heart and would probably prefer to shoot only revolver because I enjoy it more. However there is often so little competition in SSR / ESR that it's not worth it, IMO.

As you can see, while shooting more accurately will of course help everyone, it's probably not the primary issue that I have since shaving off points will still not get me into master. My splits could use some work when I'm transitioning from body to head shots since I do slow down to ensure a head hit. My transitions are also okay but not fantastic... especially at 7 yards.

During practice, I find that my two biggest problems are probably the time from buzzer to first shot and shooting accurately on stage 3 without taking too much time. Actually, I've tried ramping up the speed to see how I do, but there seems like there is a point where my accuracy suddenly goes in the toilet. It's like if I shoot any faster than that point, my accuracy goes from very good to abysmal instantly. For example, I tried shooting the classifier a couple of weeks ago and went faster than I'm comfortable to see how that worked out; but I ended up performing terribly because my accuracy was so bad. I shot stages 2 & 3 about 30% faster but dropped a ton of points... the net effect was actually slipping into sharpshooter time.

As for getting a bump at a major match, it'll probably be harder than to improve my times through the classifier. I hate to be cynical but (assuming that my match day performance doesn't lag far behind my classifier performance) there seems to be tons of sandbaggers at major matches. At least for me, while I seem to do okay at classifiers and local matches, once I get to a major and compete against a lot of folks who I haven't seen before, I seem to not be able to stand up to their scores. But like I said, maybe it's just me and I put out subpar major match performances... which could be the case since I haven't shot many of them.

I'm sure the bottom line is that I haven't classified as Master yet because I'm not a master class shooter with master class skill... however, I'm just wondering what I can work on to get there. With the cost of ammo these days, I have to make every round count for something because I can't afford to just be throwing lead downrange for no good reason.

I agree that there are not enough revo shooters, but fret not, go after the CDP guys and beat them !!! It really ticks them off !!! Haha, be safe and have fun

[jmorris]

I agree with the crowd that says bump to master, at least that's what I did in the pistol classes. Had to classify in the revo classes as no chance of ever bumping.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Here's an older thread about the times needed on individual strings to make Master.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7259&st=0

When I practice the Classifier, I score and paste after each string. That way I know what skills need more work.

[steel1212]

When I shot that 81 second classifier I wasn't trying I was just shooting. You need to shoot it relaxed, calm, and smooth. Follow that front sight on the shots you need it and let the times fall where they will.

[Strick]

When I shot that 81 second classifier I wasn't trying I was just shooting. You need to shoot it relaxed, calm, and smooth. Follow that front sight on the shots you need it and let the times fall where they will.

Truth has just been spoken.

I shoot the classifier every few weeks since it a collection of good drills. When I shoot it just as practice I am usually under 85, when I try to push and get into the 70's it ends up in the 90's.

[TacticalReload]

When I shot that 81 second classifier I wasn't trying I was just shooting. You need to shoot it relaxed, calm, and smooth. Follow that front sight on the shots you need it and let the times fall where they will.

Seems like simple, but good, advice. I think the real problem is that it's easier said than done. For example, shooting a classifier usually involves loading up ammo, packing up the gear, driving maybe an hour, paying $15, spending a fair amount of time waiting for your turn, and then getting one chance to perform your best while shooting cold. I know it's "just" a classifier, but doing something bad like dropping a single head shot in the very first string means all of the above was a big waste of time, money, and effort. Because of that, I tend to take an extra quarter or half a second to make sure my sights are lined up. All those extra fractions of a second add up to a few extra seconds just on the first stage. Slightly fumble a grip here and a reload there and you're left driving an hour home with nothing but a dirty gun and a disappointing score. Sure all these things come into play when shooting a match, but when you're competing against other people, they have the chance of fumbling as well. When you're just measured against a static score, everything has to be perfect. Plus screwing up at a match has no lasting effect... when it's over, it's over, and you move on. But messing up on a classifier means you're left with an unsatisfactory label that you carrying around. Once again, I know it's "just" a classifier. But I tend to get into my own head more than before a match.

[Strick]

If you want to be a Master that can compete at the Master level you will have to learn to overcome that. Being able to step up to any stage at any match and shoot it at the high level is exactly what makes a competitive MA.

[lugnut]

When I shot that 81 second classifier I wasn't trying I was just shooting. You need to shoot it relaxed, calm, and smooth. Follow that front sight on the shots you need it and let the times fall where they will.

Truth has just been spoken.

I shoot the classifier every few weeks since it a collection of good drills. When I shoot it just as practice I am usually under 85, when I try to push and get into the 70's it ends up in the 90's.

So funny. I was at practice the other day with a friend. I was trying too hard. On the buzzer I'd draw the gun and stop. It kept happening. My friend said what the hell was I doing? I told him "I was trying to go fast and F'd up my draw!" It kept happening. Sometimes it hard to just let it happen......