So,why are all the limited guns I see .40's?

[TonyT]

Just curious..I see everybody building their Limites guns in .40..Why not 10mm? The .40 case length isn't really meant to run on the 1911 platform,the 10mm is,and the 10 seems to me to be more versatile if you want to use the gun for purposes other than competition,and,to me,just a more desirable cartridge,especially for a high dollar gun like a 2011..Is it a case of the old Howie Mandel line:"that's whatcha do.."?[Just a bone headed inquiry from an old fart who despises.40's,LOL!!]

40 S&W brass is much less expensive than 38 Super. Albeit the 1911's in 40 S&W appear more temoperamental than either in 45 or 9mm/38 Super.

[Lou D]

Just curious..I see everybody building their Limites guns in .40..Why not 10mm? The .40 case length isn't really meant to run on the 1911 platform,the 10mm is,and the 10 seems to me to be more versatile if you want to use the gun for purposes other than competition,and,to me,just a more desirable cartridge,especially for a high dollar gun like a 2011..Is it a case of the old Howie Mandel line:"that's whatcha do.."?[Just a bone headed inquiry from an old fart who despises.40's,LOL!!]

40 S&W brass is much less expensive than 38 Super. Albeit the 1911's in 40 S&W appear more temoperamental than either in 45 or 9mm/38 Super.

I kinda wondered about that.The 9mm could be a real PITA to get really running in a 1911,and being a fatter cartridge,the .40 to me would seem to me to be an even worse cartridge to get running 100+ percent.I think I might look at a Browning Hi Power in .40,way cheaper,already a doublestack,made for the shorter cartridge,and handles just like a 1911.Of course,not much in the way of cool parts for it like a 1911,but then,the slide is already lighter to begin with,and I could just make whatever I need for it myself,LOL!!

[Seth]

You're looking at .40 all wrong. Forget EVERYTHING you know about ballistics, penetration, killing stuff, etc...

We choose .40 for limited (which is the question you asked) for a simple reason. Its the SMALLEST caliber to be score MAJOR. The reason that that's an advantage is that there's a restriction on mag length. I can get more .40s in a 140mm mag than I can .45. End of story. Brass has little to nothing to do with it. If I can go to the line with 22+1 I have an advantage over a shooter with the same gun in .45 that's got 17+1.

End of story. I got more Major PF b.b's than a guy shooting .45.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Seth

[Lou D]

You're looking at .40 all wrong. Forget EVERYTHING you know about ballistics, penetration, killing stuff, etc...

We choose .40 for limited (which is the question you asked) for a simple reason. Its the SMALLEST caliber to be score MAJOR. The reason that that's an advantage is that there's a restriction on mag length. I can get more .40s in a 140mm mag than I can .45. End of story. Brass has little to nothing to do with it. If I can go to the line with 22+1 I have an advantage over a shooter with the same gun in .45 that's got 17+1.

End of story. I got more Major PF b.b's than a guy shooting .45.

If you go back and read my posts,I get all of that,but if you say brass has nothing to do with it,then why not run the 10mm,which will have the same exact capacity because .40 is a shortened 10mm,will make major at an even higher safety level,[probably have to load it down..]and run better in the 1911 platform?

Edited March 2, 2012 by Lou D

[Supermoto]

If you go back and read my posts,I get all of that,but if you say brass has nothing to do with it,then why not run the 10mm,which will have the same exact capacity because .40 is a shortened 10mm,will make major at an even higher safety level,[probably have to load it down..]and run better in the 1911 platform?

40sw runs great and makes major safely, so where is the benefit of 10mm?

[Seth]

You're looking at .40 all wrong. Forget EVERYTHING you know about ballistics, penetration, killing stuff, etc...

We choose .40 for limited (which is the question you asked) for a simple reason. Its the SMALLEST caliber to be score MAJOR. The reason that that's an advantage is that there's a restriction on mag length. I can get more .40s in a 140mm mag than I can .45. End of story. Brass has little to nothing to do with it. If I can go to the line with 22+1 I have an advantage over a shooter with the same gun in .45 that's got 17+1.

End of story. I got more Major PF b.b's than a guy shooting .45.

If you go back and read my posts,I get all of that,but if you say brass has nothing to do with it,then why not run the 10mm,which will have the same exact capacity because .40 is a shortened 10mm,will make major at an even higher safety level,[probably have to load it down..]and run better in the 1911 platform?

The reason that .40 became the round of choice was capacity based. The rest grew from there. Does brass availability make a difference? Of course... but that's not THE reason. Look at guns running 38TJ or 38SC. They're basically buying nothing but new brass....

[Lou D]

You're looking at .40 all wrong. Forget EVERYTHING you know about ballistics, penetration, killing stuff, etc...

We choose .40 for limited (which is the question you asked) for a simple reason. Its the SMALLEST caliber to be score MAJOR. The reason that that's an advantage is that there's a restriction on mag length. I can get more .40s in a 140mm mag than I can .45. End of story. Brass has little to nothing to do with it. If I can go to the line with 22+1 I have an advantage over a shooter with the same gun in .45 that's got 17+1.

End of story. I got more Major PF b.b's than a guy shooting .45.

If you go back and read my posts,I get all of that,but if you say brass has nothing to do with it,then why not run the 10mm,which will have the same exact capacity because .40 is a shortened 10mm,will make major at an even higher safety level,[probably have to load it down..]and run better in the 1911 platform?

The reason that .40 became the round of choice was capacity based. The rest grew from there. Does brass availability make a difference? Of course... but that's not THE reason. Look at guns running 38TJ or 38SC. They're basically buying nothing but new brass....

The .40 and the 10mm have the same capacity,the 40 is a shortened 10mm...

I just did some research,now I'm really confused..Are you guys buying new or used .40 brass? I just looked at the website of a very well known gun and shooting supplier,the difference in price on said website between 1000 rounds of new .40 and 1000 rounds of new 10mm is exactly $4.01..Not even 1/2 cent a round,.04 cents.If you buy new brass,and practice with it,pick it up,reload it and keep using it for practice,then use the used brass for total loss matches,[which is what youi probably do anyway],the cost becomes almost inconsequential.Yep,mine will definately be a 10mm...

Edited March 3, 2012 by Lou D

[blaster113]

with .40 you have the advantage of buying 1x fired brass for dirt cheap or range pickups. or if you have LE connections free brass. the only 10mm I've seen laying around is a few scattered casings fired out of MP5's left on our PD range. also never seen 1x fired 10mm brass for sale.

with that said I used to daydream about getting an extra 10mm barrel for my .40 Limited gun....20+1 rounds of 10mm

[59Bassman]

I would guess that most people shooting .40 aren't buying factory new brass. Some may be, but it's rare. In the last year, I've amassed a 5 gallon bucket of .40 S&W brass. I've not paid for any of it, other than maybe a couple hundred Speer cases from buying factory ammo. The rest is range pickups. While I'm not fond of the .40 as a caliber either, I do believe that it is about the best choice for Limited. Brass is readily available on the cheap. Almost all of the "modern" experience in reloading components, firearms setup, and mag tuning is based on the .40 S&W. It's proven and it works.

The only reason you wouldn't choose a .40 for Limited is either 1) you have another gun you like shooting already in another acceptable caliber (e.g. .45 widebody Para or Glock 20) or 2) you really want to go it alone and choose a caliber "just to be different".

If I were building a hard-use defensive pistol to stake my life on in daily carry, I'd take a 10mm over a .40 any day of the week. But in USPSA, .40 rules the roost in a game gun.

[Seth]

Personally, I use LEO pickup brass that I've obtained over the last few years. Its ALWAYS free.... Is it a motivator? Not really... if there was an advantage to be gained by running some other caliber and being forced to buy new brass, I'd run it and eat the cost.... which is exactly my point regarding 10mm. If there were a competitive advantage, we'd all be running it instead. You do what you want, but the conventional wisdom is, in my opinion, worth heeding. Guys that have the bug to compete and the resources to do so will always choose whatever equipment is the "go fastest".

[david s]

Ever tried pricing 10mm brass by the thousand? Ouch!

Yeah,that makes sense..I didn't really care too much about the brass cost,I shoot what I shoot,and I have a bucket full of tens,LOL!!

What's the power factor # for USPSA major? Me,if I wanted capacity and power,I'd be building a 9X23..I'm asking because even though at the moment I have nowhere to shoot,I may start buying parts to build a gun.I could easily go .40,I have a pile of brass I got from a local PD,but I just HATE the cartridge,I swore I'd never own a gun in .40.I do,however,also have a corresponding pile of .357 SIG I'd like to shoot in something besides my Glock..

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

[dixondave]

Lou D

Just so you know a lot of us load the 40 S&W looong. I use 200 gr plated bullets and load to 10mm length so to the gun and shooter it is a 10mm with the only difference being a small pistol primer instead of a large. Why load long, well lower pressures and my Para loves it. I never look at 40 S&W load data for my 40 because it is no longer a 40 it is a 10mm. Change recoil springs and shoot full power 10mm loads, because it is a 10mm. After awhile it seems dumb to have a 10mm in a 1911 except if you really want to shoot short light bullets at high velocity, ohterwise a 40 is a 10mm in a 1911.

[The Antichrome]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

[david s]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

[GunshineST]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

Not a stupid question; it's not easy to find this info when starting out. For limited, .40 is the minimum bullet to make major. In open, it's 9mm.

[Lee King]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

David, see the rules Appendix D2 Line 5. They lay out the requirements for caliber and power factor for Limited. Rulebook

[david s]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

David, see the rules Appendix D2 Line 5. They lay out the requirements for caliber and power factor for Limited. Rulebook

So i read all four apendix's. Why bother shooting less than a .40 in Limited if you can't make Major. Why is a sub .40 gun even mentioned in the Limited Apendix?

[Corey]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

David, see the rules Appendix D2 Line 5. They lay out the requirements for caliber and power factor for Limited. Rulebook

So i read all four apendix's. Why bother shooting less than a .40 in Limited if you can't make Major. Why is a sub .40 gun even mentioned in the Limited Apendix?

Because there are people who like to shoot 9mm. Yes, they can only make Minor but they can still compete in the division.

[david s]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

David, see the rules Appendix D2 Line 5. They lay out the requirements for caliber and power factor for Limited. Rulebook

So i read all four apendix's. Why bother shooting less than a .40 in Limited if you can't make Major. Why is a sub .40 gun even mentioned in the Limited Apendix?

Because there are people who like to shoot 9mm. Yes, they can only make Minor but they can still compete in the division.

Last stupid question, no disrespect intended, Can you win that Match shooting 9mm?

[Babaganoosh]

Yup sure can. In my area we have approx 2 to 3 guys who shoot Production division and win the entire match.

[Corey]

Can you win shooting Minor where your competition is shooting Major? Sure. Will it be hard? Yes. You are getting less points for each non-A hit so every time you miss the A zone, you are hurting yourself and your score. Shoot very accurately and pretty darn fast and you can come out on top.

[392heminut]

I used to go to a big match in Yuma every spring and one year a shooter from Mexico shot the match with a 2011 in 38 Super. The Match Director allowed his targets to be scored Major due to the fact that gun owners in Mexico were not allowed to own firearms in military calibers. That's the only time I've ever heard of 38 Super being scored Major in Limited Div.

[david s]

Can you win shooting Minor where your competition is shooting Major? Sure. Will it be hard? Yes. You are getting less points for each non-A hit so every time you miss the A zone, you are hurting yourself and your score. Shoot very accurately and pretty darn fast and you can come out on top.

That's what i was looking for. Why score one caliber different than the others, when all could be loaded to Major? Do They fell that 9mm or 38 S/C loaded to Major is more accurate say than .40 Major?

[Larry White]

Years ago the major power factor was higher than it is now,175000 vrs todays 165000. Bullet and powder selection were not what they are now, and niether was pistol selection. There were lots of 9mm pistols with unsupported chambers that were dangerous at the pressures needed to make major even if they had the case capacity to do it. The only cases that really had enough case cap. were the 9x21 and the .38 super and the terrible 9x25, the 9x23, the TJ and SC didnt exist. See if you can find a defination for the term "super face",those were the guys who had little flecks of powder burned into thier faces and hands from blowing up supers trying to make major and create enough gas to drive the crude comps of the day. You had to have some brass to be a RO back then, there was a bomb in every squad So that brings us the the rules, back then there was no limited division, just open and a equipment race like you have never seen, todays hot gun and cartiage were outdated before you could get it blued. When Limited Div was formed decsiom was made to stop all that, the 9s were restricted to minor, .40 was the smallest major cartige and right or wrong, good or bad thats where we stand today. So its a safety thing and a cost contaiment thing and I, for one hope it stays that way.----------Larry

[Kristofer_G]

Actually,I don't carry a 9X21, I just think the 9 is such a pipsqueak,I bought a reamer.Didn't hurt that my buddy,[a famous builder] had 4000 rounds of 9X21 brass,half were loaded with jacketed bullets,and a Bar-sto 9X21 barrel,bought the lot for 75 bucks,LOL!

I carry either a custom Star .380 I built,11 rounds in it,or a micro .45 I also built.The Star is a really cool little gun,only an inch or so wide,but a 4" barrel,nearly full size 1911 type grip,with an extra mag in a knife pouch on my belt,got 21 rounds on tap.The .45 is only 28 ounces empty,steel frame,holds 7,and I carry an extra full size mag with that..[because they don't make a .46..At least I haven't yet,LOL!!] I'll post pics of them..

Classic.