Jim Norman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 With embedded ROs: RO, CRO, Shooter, On Deck Shooter, Shooter that just ran. That is 5 people. This normally leaves 3-7 people at most matches to Tape, Set Steel and Brass. Way back when, we used to call out the 'Order' Everyone taped, set steel and brassed and we all got our brass back and the match ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Our squads have ROs within the squad. We often switch off duties depending on how soon the ROs time will come up. We allow walk throughs but the On Deck shooter has the right/ability to tell others to get off the stage. It is their stage while people are pasting, setting steel and picking brass. Resetting the stage is the responsibility of the squad. Not everyone has to do it every time, but all help during the course of the stage. The idea of not taping for someone who has neglected their duty to help reset the stage is childish! We are adults, the responsible action is to politely inform the shooter of their responsibility to help reset the stage, pick brass, etc. If they fail to comply then they get the opportunity to leave. At our club, the ROs remind the squad to participate in the reseting of the stage. The RO has called out specific individuals to help if their participation seems to be lacking. There should not a rule against walking the stage between shooters, just common courtesy and the rights of the next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This is very rare around my area, but what I can't stand are ROs that act like the squad ethics police. Anyone that has shot on a squad with me knows that I'm usually the first one to step onto the stage to reset, and usually to the back most part of the stage, too. However, the one time I skip a reset to take a leak or something they are on me when I get back and say, "Feel free to help reset the stage!" For Pete's sake, I'll bust my butt to help out, but if you aren't gonna bother to notice and appreciate, KMA the next time... Oh, and yeah, give up the stage to the On-Deck shooter. You'll get your chance when it's your turn. I often have to visualize my run through the back of someone's head because they're standing in the start position for the 8th time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If I haven't completely figured out a stage within the alloted walkthrough time, specially when it is a "memory stage" where targets appear and disappear depending on where I am on the CoF, it motivates me even more to be out on the stage helping reset. It let's my subconscious absorb the stage layout, and on my walk back up range, if time is available, I'll airgun one of the positions I was planning on to confirm my plan. With enough resets and trying out each of the positions, by the time I'm on deck when I have the stage to myself, the plan usually has gelled together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Oh, and yeah, give up the stage to the On-Deck shooter. You'll get your chance when it's your turn. I often have to visualize my run through the back of someone's head because they're standing in the start position for the 8th time... This probably more than anything is what we need to have happen. Have an order, call it out and get cracking. It sucks to be on a stage with 12 targets and 8 steel and see one person maybe two taping (the same ones each time) time after time. Sure this is a social game, to a point, but if you stand back all day and don't help, don't complain if the match either takes a real long time to complete or it goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The part that I hate a little more that than the repeated walkthroughs is the 3-5 minute make ready. The rituals some shooters are going through now are just getting a little of of hand but I guess that is for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd D. Barber Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) If I haven't completely figured out a stage within the alloted walkthrough time, specially when it is a "memory stage" where targets appear and disappear depending on where I am on the CoF, it motivates me even more to be out on the stage helping reset. It let's my subconscious absorb the stage layout, and on my walk back up range, if time is available, I'll airgun one of the positions I was planning on to confirm my plan. With enough resets and trying out each of the positions, by the time I'm on deck when I have the stage to myself, the plan usually has gelled together. Oh, I forgot to mention, stages are posted on the net, usually about two weeks before the match. After cooling myself a bit, I will try to see if the problem can be solved by simply shooting in a different squad. Ken Edited February 20, 2012 by Floyd D. Barber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd D. Barber Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Oh, and yeah, give up the stage to the On-Deck shooter. You'll get your chance when it's your turn. I often have to visualize my run through the back of someone's head because they're standing in the start position for the 8th time... This probably more than anything is what we need to have happen. Have an order, call it out and get cracking. It sucks to be on a stage with 12 targets and 8 steel and see one person maybe two taping (the same ones each time) time after time. Sure this is a social game, to a point, but if you stand back all day and don't help, don't complain if the match either takes a real long time to complete or it goes away. I actually enjoy pasting. Gives me a chance to see some nice groups. You can also plan your strategy, without stopping and air gunning. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I like to tape too, taping keeps my legs loose. I tape every chance I get and walk to the farthest point just to stay loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 After cooling myself a bit, I will try to see if the problem can be solved by simply shooting in a different squad. That's what I was going to suggest. There are certain shooters (and certain RO's) here that I know really have their shiznit together, and they get it done efficiently with everyone working together and the on-deck shooter having time to chill and plan while the stage is reset and brass is picked up. I hope I've shown enough attentiveness and desire to help that those folks want to squad with me. Usually we get to the next stage while the squad ahead of us has 1-2 shooters left, so we all get to watch them and start planning too. There are 1 or 2 people that I just try avoid squadding up with. Either they take all dang day, or they don't help, or they pocket the brass they pick up instead of returning it to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Air gun away, as long as you and your squad mates get the steel reset and targets taped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) If I haven't completely figured out a stage within the alloted walkthrough time, specially when it is a "memory stage" where targets appear and disappear depending on where I am on the CoF, it motivates me even more to be out on the stage helping reset. It let's my subconscious absorb the stage layout, and on my walk back up range, if time is available, I'll airgun one of the positions I was planning on to confirm my plan. With enough resets and trying out each of the positions, by the time I'm on deck when I have the stage to myself, the plan usually has gelled together. Oh, I forgot to mention, stages are posted on the net, usually about two weeks before the match. After cooling myself a bit, I will try to see if the problem can be solved by simply shooting in a different squad. Ken Internet is nice, but not any help and not an excuse to not run a match the correctly. 1. Inspection period. 2. On deck shooter only on the stage in between. Air gunning the actual stage is important for positioning. It can be accomplished efficiently, within the rules, and when done right everyone is happy. When someone steps in front of me I simply say " do you mind if I have the stage?" and when they aren't pasting I shove a roll in their hand. Most times we have enough people for you to take a break during the hole position and walk during the on deck. If you need a rule, quote 8.7.3 and state as ro or rm that only the on deck shooter is to be inspecting the stage. That way you can 10.6.1 them when they still don't listen. Edited February 21, 2012 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is a social responsibility issue. The Match Director needs to convey the expectations of what is or isn't acceptable behavior. All it takes is a couple key examples to be made in order to snap the majority of the shooters into shape. For the few bad apples that refuse to play nice, simply ask them to leave and not come back. When people know that there is a tangible penalty for being a dead beat they usually shape up or ship out. This is obviously a Win/Win situation. In reality the policing of proper behavior needs to be driven by the masses, not one or a few. Work towards changing the whole clubs mentality of what this sport is about. Its easy for some people to forget that USPSA matches are based on and only happen with extensive volunteer support. If you successfully instill this "Everyone is a Volunteer" mentality into all of the shooters then they will all do their best to make the match run as smoothly and fairly as possible. The one thing that I have yet to figure out is getting everyone to pitch in properly when the squad size gets above 15 shooters. After a squad gets more than 15 shooters a strange social event happens where the majority of the shooters think that there is someone else that will do the work of running and resetting the stage because there are so many people on the squad. Then before you know it there are only 2 - 3 people stuck with ROing and resetting the entire stage while the rest of the squad is sitting around, talking, programming their stage run or simply zoning out. When squads get bigger than 15 shooters, I have lost count of how many times I ended up ROing the majority of a squad then tape/reset most of the stage by my self only to look up range and the vast majority of the squad is standing around waiting for their turn to shoot. This is when I start cracking the whip and call people out for not helping. When I do this they usually snap out of it and jump in and help. But it always happens at least once every match when the squads get bigger than 15 shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 When squads get large, you actually want the sharpest RO to manage the stage -- not on the timer or clipboard. You really need someone to (vocally) lead the taping and resetting effort, and then encouraging any stragglers to clear the range. Someone paying careful attention to those simple tasks -- as well as being the last person forward, ensuring that the stage is clear of competitors, i.e. safe to run the next competitor -- can easily shave 30-60 seconds off the reset time..... That translates into ~10-15 minutes saved per stage, and will allow the match to wrap an hour earlier, assuming 15 man squads and 5 stages.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd D. Barber Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 The part that I hate a little more that than the repeated walkthroughs is the 3-5 minute make ready. The rituals some shooters are going through now are just getting a little of of hand but I guess that is for another thread. You mean like people loading magazines on the firing line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) The part that I hate a little more that than the repeated walkthroughs is the 3-5 minute make ready. The rituals some shooters are going through now are just getting a little of of hand but I guess that is for another thread. You mean like people loading magazines on the firing line? When I took the Level I RO class, the instructor taught us to to have the shooter unload and show clear after a reasonable amount of time, call up the next shooter, and have the shooter put themselves in the shooting order when they are ready. Edited February 23, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 you mean a ritual like first airgunning the stage from the start position, then loading each magazine into the gun, dropping it out and re-inserting it then moving to the next? Surely you jest! How do you expect the Mall-Ninja to be able to run the COF effectively eliminating all the Zombies that are hidden in plain view if we restrict or limit his ritualistic pre-shot dance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 you mean a ritual like first airgunning the stage from the start position, then loading each magazine into the gun, dropping it out and re-inserting it then moving to the next? Surely you jest! How do you expect the Mall-Ninja to be able to run the COF effectively eliminating all the Zombies that are hidden in plain view if we restrict or limit his ritualistic pre-shot dance? While I dislike overly involved routines, I've not seen anyone be completely crazy about it. Anyway, from what I understand, this isn't a recent development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 you mean a ritual like first airgunning the stage from the start position, then loading each magazine into the gun, dropping it out and re-inserting it then moving to the next? Surely you jest! How do you expect the Mall-Ninja to be able to run the COF effectively eliminating all the Zombies that are hidden in plain view if we restrict or limit his ritualistic pre-shot dance? Or the ole......Airgun, then rack the slide 10 times, check dot, holster up then draw and transition to a few targets, repeat process, gently insert mag and rack the slide, drop mag, reinsert, drop again, insert big stick, drop big stick, reinsert big stick, mime entire stage, then lastly get into position and move hands to the draw position 4 times........."shooter ready?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 you mean a ritual like first airgunning the stage from the start position, then loading each magazine into the gun, dropping it out and re-inserting it then moving to the next? Surely you jest! How do you expect the Mall-Ninja to be able to run the COF effectively eliminating all the Zombies that are hidden in plain view if we restrict or limit his ritualistic pre-shot dance? Or the ole......Airgun, then rack the slide 10 times, check dot, holster up then draw and transition to a few targets, repeat process, gently insert mag and rack the slide, drop mag, reinsert, drop again, insert big stick, drop big stick, reinsert big stick, mime entire stage, then lastly get into position and move hands to the draw position 4 times........."shooter ready?" You know how those Para shooters are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 you mean a ritual like first airgunning the stage from the start position, then loading each magazine into the gun, dropping it out and re-inserting it then moving to the next? Surely you jest! How do you expect the Mall-Ninja to be able to run the COF effectively eliminating all the Zombies that are hidden in plain view if we restrict or limit his ritualistic pre-shot dance? Or the ole......Airgun, then rack the slide 10 times, check dot, holster up then draw and transition to a few targets, repeat process, gently insert mag and rack the slide, drop mag, reinsert, drop again, insert big stick, drop big stick, reinsert big stick, mime entire stage, then lastly get into position and move hands to the draw position 4 times........."shooter ready?" Good point. It's funny to link the extensive pre-run ritual to a "mall ninja". But when it's a GM? Hmm. You left out the multiple draws to check on the chambered round to make sure it hasn't disappeared since being chambered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I was not trying to reference any one particular shooter. I think that we all have some sort of ritual. Also some stages require a very precise order of engagement with very precise timing, others no so much. On a very fast stage where 10ths count very high or on a course where there are some really odd engagement points one or tow QUICK run throughs at LAMR are OK, a 3 minute insert eery mage, rack and re-rack, chick to make sure your fiber optic is turned on gets to be a little much. What is actually a bit amusing to watch is (and forgive me as I know we were all new once and we will all most likely get old sometime) a shooter that is about to run a 12 second COF in 60-90 seconds go through all this. What they generally need is more basic skill practice, not a better routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Wow. Do any of you guys remember that this is a game and it's supposed to be fun? So a shooter does a happy dance for a minute. Do you really want to go home and get nagged by your wife for not cleaning the porch? I can't help but think of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I hope you never have to shoot IDPA. Nobody has to shoot IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It appears this conversation has run it's course. If someone has something pertaining to the subject to add, PM a Mod and we will open it back up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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