Dealing with non-english speaking shooters

[Barrettone]

This question comes from a thread drift that didn't elicit the direct response I was looking for. How would you deal with a non-english speaking competitor and /or spectator (keeping in mind they fall under the CRO's jurisdiction, ie coaching, interference, no eyes or ears etc...) if you do or do not have the luxury of a translator. I have had this happen to me before, and am curious how an RO is supposed to convey pertinent safety information (ie "trigger", "muzzle", etc...). I know that IPSC and USPSA says that they are responsible for knowing the range commands (I think it is policy), but little else is demanded for them to compete in another country. I have muttled through before, but it often comes at the cost of precious time and can be trying. It can be difficult when they visit family from across the pond and want to shoot or watch a match. Please give me your input on this matter. Has it happened to you as well. I really feel ill-trained to handle this type of situation, and would like to know both IPSC and USPSA policy on the issue. Am I the only one that has experienced this type of thing??? In particular, how about new shooters who do not know the language (they still need to be cultivated...right???). This has happened as well, albeit with a translator...what if there wasn't one??? Of course, it is getting more and more rare to not have a foriegn competitor that speaks english, but it has happened to me, and I am not sure what to do (or not do), and often get that "deer in the headlights look".

Jeff

[shred]

I've only experienced this from the other side. As a almost-no-spanish-speaking gringo shooter in Central America, everybody was very helpful. The people that weren't comfy with English did their best to either attempt it, find a translator (lucky there were plenty) or use enough sign language to get by. Those worked pretty well. It helped that I sorta knew how to shoot already, but with a new shooter, I'd probably do what I do with new shooters here-- stay close and attempt to correct any minor glitches as best I could.

[EricW]

Look at it as an opportunity to show how great America is and Americans are. When I've travelled abroad, regardless of language barriers, people have almost always bent over backwards to help me. Usually there will be someone there who can translate, but if not, go for the sign language.

I think if you treat the non-English speaking person(s) as distinguished guests (as they should be), the "problem" (which it really isn't) will take care of itself.

[EricW]

I just realized something. As an RO, you can appoint tapers and brassers and steel setter. Well, there's nothing in the rulebook that says you can't appoint........................................an ambassador.

Make the "ambassador" the spectator's/competitor's buddy. Even if they only speak sign language, they can help keep your new friend out of the way. At the same time make sure that the spectator gets special treats. Give them a guided walkthrough. Give them the best vantage point when one of the hot rocks shoots the stage.

Do feel free to relieve yourself of the burden so you can do your job. At the same time, you can make it more safe, more fun, and more educational for everybody.

[Vince Pinto]

Jeff,

Living in Asia, I travel between some 10 different regions where English is not the lingua franca (e.g. Australia, New Zealand etc.), although it's often an official language. I've yet to experience any problem with the standard IPSC range commands (including "Stop", "Finger" or "Muzzle"), but I have had some difficulty when reading stage briefings. This is because some people actually accuse me of having an accent (can you believe it?), but they're mostly Kiwis who call me "Vunce" and who pronounce the number between 5 & 7 as "sux"

It's actually a greater challenge in Europe (scusi?) and South America (que?) but, again, the range commands are usually not the issue - it's reciting the written stage briefing.

In any case, whether you're "The Gringo" or you're dealing with a foreign guest, the best virtues are patience and a friendly smile. Most everybody gets the gist of most courses of fire during the walkthrough, but you might need to "go the extra mile" when pointing out "penalty zones", such as fault or charge lines.

I've actually conducted full IROA RO seminars in "Chinglish" to groups of +25 students, and nobody died, so I guess IPSC shooters tend to get by with a Coke and smile.

POSTSCRIPT: I was just reminded of the time I shot the 1998 European Championships in Greece, and I was squadded with the Spanish Ladies Gold Team (don't ask - I just know the right people!). Language was a huge barrier, and I became the unofficial squad interpretor, which is quite an achievement really, given that I don't speak more than 15 words of Spanish (the first 10 being numbers).

Anyway, at every single stage there were fault and charge lines and at every single stage, one of the captivating young signoritas would put her foot on top of a charge line and, while alternating between touching the "right" side and not, she'd say "Good/No Good, yes?".

And for 24 stages, I replied "Si" ........ with a Coke and a smile

[dminor]

I agree with Vince. The range commands are not a problem. Range commands are given in English all over the world.

On the other hand range briefings are the real challenge. In Italy recently, Arnie and I gave the range briefings in English. Skywalker worked as an RO with Arnie and I RO'ed with Roberto, an IROA/CRO who spoke almost no English only Italian. After the briefings were given in English, Skywalker and Roberto would give the briefing in Italian if necessary. It was a great system and required very little extra time. On Sunday the staff put 140 shooters through the match and we were done by 6:00pm! Sign language is a great way to communicate.

The Pan-Am was a great experience for the US staff a few years back. I had an IROA/RO from Brazil working my stage who spoke almost no English. It certainly did not stop us from having a great time and running a good stage. Also attending that match was a high percentage of non-english speaking shooters. I did no experience a single problem dealing with them at the line.

The bottom line is a range, is a range is a range, is a range, no matter where it is located in the world. The range commands are always in English and shooters and ROs alike should know what is expected of them.

[Garfield]

an IROA/CRO who spoke almost no English only Italian.

Hmmm.... not quite the way it should be, isn't it ?

[Vince Pinto]

Garfield,

Yep, we had a few non-English speakers slip through the net when we weren't looking but, on reviewing the relevant files, IROA confirmed they were excellent ROs in all other respects.

Of course "once bitten, twice shy" so these days we're more cautious ....... and ve are vatching you verrrrrrryy carefully

[Garfield]

Of course "once bitten, twice shy" so these days we're more cautious ....... and ve are vatching you verrrrrrryy carefully

Yes I heard.

Jürgen just emailed me earlier this week that pending new rules all applications are on hold .

[Barrettone]

Vince, Denise, Eric, Shred and Garfield:

Thanks for all the valuable suggestions!!! I am not surprised to hear that course briefings are a greater challenge. It gives me just a little bit of an edge with these ideas in my RO "arsenal". I think it can be overcome, I just didn't know how. I appreciate the input.

Jeff

[slavex]

well I know how you feel, sort of. I am not an RO yet, missed the course back in the winter as I was holding a club match. But my area of concern is with RO's that don't speak good English. We've had a number of people get put through the RO course here in BC for whom English is most definitely a second language. I absolutely love these guys, and they are great fun to shoot with, but if they are going to be in charge of telling us what a stage is supposed to be, and can't read the stage copy, or answer questions either because they don't understand enough English to know what we are saying, or don't know how to answer in English good enough for us to understand, that I do have a problem with. As well I have observed more than once, a couple of these RO's failing to call penalties or even stop a competitor when something is going wrong (finger on trigger during mag change, breaking 90 etc) simply because they couldn't get the word "STOP" out. It's not just new RO nerves, they just aren't comfortable enough with the language to be safe RO's (IMHO). They may have passed all the requisite training, and performed well under the eye of their instructors and all that, but they are most definitely failing to perform in the field (as it were) and I think that could and might lead to a dangerous situation.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Rob,

I absolutely love these guys, and they are great fun to shoot with, but if they are going to be in charge of telling us what a stage is supposed to be, and can't read the stage copy, or answer questions either because they don't understand enough English to know what we are saying, or don't know how to answer in English good enough for us to understand, that I do have a problem with.

I generally agree with your statement, but this is partly why Rule 3.2.1 requires that a copy of the written stage briefing be posted at each stage, the idea being that you can read it for yourself.

Of course the "answering questions" part could indeed be a problem but, again, a well constructed COF combined with the world's best course procedure (i.e. "On the start signal, engage all targets as and when visible"), should serve to eliminate the need for questions from all but the most ornery of competitors.

Thinking back through my experiences though, I'd say most problems I've encountered are actually more to do with the RO's accent or pronunciation rather than a lack of command of English. I have a good buddy who is an otherwise excellent RO but he places the emphasis on the wrong syllable, so he pronounces words like "PROBably" as "proBABly", and "POPper" as "popPER"

[Jim Norman]

World's Best Course Proceedure: amended

Upon Start signal, engage all targets.

When visible is not required, how many targets do you engage that you can't see?

Other lines that are not needed, "with sufficient rounds to score", "From with in the Free-Fire Zone", "After drawing your gun" an a host of other mildly redundent phrases.

The only time more is really neded is if there is a procceduer such as where you are required to carry a package to a certain point in the COF, and if there are specific penalties for failing to have said package while actually engaging targets.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

World's Best  Course Proceedure: amended - Upon Start signal, engage all targets.

Well slap my ass and call me Susan! Come to think of it, why do we even need to state "Upon Start signal, engage all targets"?

Everybody knows you can't start shooting before the Start Signal, which is fully described in Rule 8.3.4. The number of rounds required (e.g. 2 per paper target etc.) must be stated in the written stage briefing (Rule 3.2.1), and you're certainly not obliged to "engage all targets" (or any targets at all for that matter), because we have Rule 10.2.7.

I think we're onto something here .......... just write "Nil" next to the word "Procedure" in Rule 3.2.1 - sometimes less is more.

[dv8]

While my English is OK, it is still my second language, and I do appreciate when an RO pauses and waits until someone else shooting a nearby stage is done before continuing reading a stage description. When a native English speaker misses a part of a phrase (because of noise for example), he can reconstruct it in his mind without even noticing it. It is not always so easy for non natives, so when you guys see me asking questions about something that an RO has just explained, it is not because I am stupid, it's because I am deaf!

What's your excuse?

[Garfield]

<off topic>

DV8 I like your signature AND your profile picture

[dv8]

<off topic>

DV8 I like your signature AND your profile picture 

Thanks Arvid!

[Jim Norman]

When one brags that he or she has the "World's Best" of anything, they should be prepared to have it challenged.

While I agree you don't engage targets prior to the Start Signal, I can't honestly think of a way to get around saying something to denote the beginning of the COF.

I would agree that the word "all" included could actually result in additional proceedurals for failure to follow the course description should a shooter fail to engage ALL of the targets.

Also, are No-Shoots considered Targets? We do refer to them as "Penalty Targets. If so wouldn't one with such a course description be obligated to actually deliberately shoot at the No-Shoot "Targets"?

So a further re-write would or rather might sound like this "Upon the start signal being given, engage all non-penalty scoring targets."

To bring us back from absurdity, how about "

"Upon Start Signal, engage targets"

We have successfully reduced the stage breif to 5 words that are most likely universally understood and also appear not expose the shooter to additional penalties.

Glad I didn't claim to have the "World's Best"

[Vince Pinto]

Jürgen just emailed me earlier this week that pending new rules all applications are on hold  .

Sorry about that, but I have no doubt that the new rules which are currently being drafted won't be a problem for good people like you.

DV8 I like your signature AND your profile picture 

Me three

It's truly a pleasure dealing with the Dutch Mafia, because none of you guys have been victims of Humour Bypass Surgery and your grasp of the English language is far better than some native speakers.

Keep up the great attitude guys ................

[Garfield]

Ok,

I thought about posting this yesterday but held back because it's really silly, but now that we are on the subject of short stage briefings, how about this one I gave a few weeks ago in Slovakia:

1. [Me, pointing at shooter then at starting box]

2. [Me, pointing at timer] : "Beep !"

3. [Me, pointing at shooter first, then at targets downrange] : "Bang bang !"

Funny enough the whole squad completely understood my briefing !

[Vince Pinto]

Ha! Good one (and, for humour impaired readers, I have no doubt that Garfield followed this "ice breaker" by reciting the written stage briefing).

In a similar vein, at an Australian Nationals a few years back, I made up a "yellow card" and a "red card", and I told competitors that IPSC had adopted new signs, and I would use the cards respectively to indicate procedural penalties and match DQs.

One of these days I'll work at a USPSA match and, when I do, I think it'd be fun to mimmick grid iron referees and their hand-signals to the TV broadcasters, along the lines of:

(Personal foul) -- (Illegal use of weak hand) -- (Penalty of 10 points per shot fired) -- (Whew, now I need a nap!)

[JMD]

Allow me to lurch back to the original topic. I have had the privilege to work matches on several continents with many different resident languages - non English. While the rule book states that the range commands are in English, competitors are members of their respective regions and presumably have read said rulebook the truth is often somewhere in between.

As the range official there is much I can convey through demeanor, tone of voice, body language and, if really necessary, a smile. When dealing with new or inexperienced shooters body position acts as prevention to premature handling of firearms or movement.

Some cultures do not appreciate physical contact while others will find a hand on the shoulder a comforting and relaxing gesture. When in doubt remember that we are guests (or hosts) and should act accordingly.

The use of the correct and only the correct range commands will reduce any unpleasantness that may occur from well meaning friendly chatter. As a reminder to my USA brothers (and sisters), “range is going hot” and “do you understand the course of fire...etc.” are not range commands and have confused foreign shooters in the past. Many of these foreign shooters are often USPSA members but more importantly they are members of the family of IPSC/USPSA shooters.

If sign language is necessary the strong hand is an excellent example of a pistol and may be used to demonstrate the 90/muzzle, finger in trigger guard, inadvertent detonation and the finger across the throat with the phrase “DQ” is well known. A demonstration of “STOP” in your command voice is also important information. Exaggerate or mime a little and instill confidence and a sense of fun. *Remember to always end the briefing on a positive or humorous note.

After a while you will know whom to call on to act as interpreter if you do not have a volunteer. When needed you can often identify the “alpha” personalities and a sincere request goes a long way.

While I am certain to have missed a number of helpful hints, should you find too many people walking the course between shooters, despite prior instruction you might simply remark that the time is reserved for the next shooter. If the problem persists you might ask “who is the next shooter’ or award the repeat offender’s zeal by suggesting they shoot next. Word spreads quickly!

If you have not worked, or shot outside the country you are missing a tremendous experience. Stay tuned for future info on upcoming matches.

Joel

[Vince Pinto]

While I am certain to have missed a number of helpful hints, should you find too many people walking the course between shooters, despite prior instruction you might simply remark that the time is reserved for the next shooter. If the problem persists you might ask “who is the next shooter’ or award the repeat offender’s zeal by suggesting they shoot next. Word spreads quickly!

You're doing just fine Joel, and thanks for your valuable input.

If you have not worked, or shot outside the country you are missing a tremendous experience. Stay tuned for future info on upcoming matches.

Yes Sir. And if I were King of IPSC, you'd be required to do so as a condition of membership because, frankly, you really don't know doo-doo until you've participated in a match, either as a competitor or an RO, outside of your home region. Luckily I shot my first international match the first year I started shooting IPSC, and that experience truly opened my eyes and gave me tonnes of ideas to use at home, not to mention a bunch of great new friends.

And I consider myself particularly lucky that my first international match was in the Philippines which is, in my well-travelled experience, the strongest and best organised region in the wide world of IPSC.

[Garfield]

If you have not worked, or shot outside the country you are missing a tremendous experience.

Oh so true !

[Nik Habicht]

If you have not worked, or shot outside the country you are missing a tremendous experience. Stay tuned for future info on upcoming matches.

Yes Sir. And if I were King of IPSC, you'd be required to do so as a condition of membership because, frankly, you really don't know doo-doo until you've participated in a match, either as a competitor or an RO, outside of your home region.

Thereby once again setting up an elite sport --- where the financially challenged are not welcome? I think not!

There are other ways to learn about what goes in the rest of the world.....