Rules at a Lv 1 match

[Chuck Anderson]

So, are we SURE that gun lights are not authorized in LIMITED Division, also? Just want to clarify that before assuming they have to shoot Open.

Yes we're sure. The exemption under 5.2.8 only applies to holsters, magazine pouches and their respective locations for the purposes of Divisional compliance. Flashlights have long been considered electronic sights and have never been allowed in any Division but Open. 5.2.8 won't get you around that restriction.

[Jim Norman]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

[Chuck Anderson]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

First off, I've never seen any officer show up in "FULL" duty gear. Bits and pieces yes, duty rig yes, everything, no. Second, if he wanted to take the light off it would be a non issue. If he really wants to argue the point and is there for training, then it really doesn't matter, Open is fine.

Personally I don't want to be in a position of shortcutting division rules for every widget that someone wants to claim is for duty carry. Holster position, magazine pouches, that makes sense. Lights, lasers, red dots, uh no. It's a lot easier to have a bright clean line in this case than it is to have a different interpretation at every different venue.

[GrumpyOne]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

If they are just shooting for "practice" why not?

[GrumpyOne]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

First off, I've never seen any officer show up in "FULL" duty gear. Bits and pieces yes, duty rig yes, everything, no. Second, if he wanted to take the light off it would be a non issue. If he really wants to argue the point and is there for training, then it really doesn't matter, Open is fine.

Personally I don't want to be in a position of shortcutting division rules for every widget that someone wants to claim is for duty carry. Holster position, magazine pouches, that makes sense. Lights, lasers, red dots, uh no. It's a lot easier to have a bright clean line in this case than it is to have a different interpretation at every different venue.

Thanks Chuck, for the response. BTW, we did have a LEO shoot in a match in January wearing everything I think that he could carry (cuffs, taser, baton, everything, I think!)

[Trini]

Ok, at a Lv 1 club match, a LEO shows up with his duty rig, which has a flashlight mounted on a rail under the gun. The LEO is shooting in Production division. I know they (the LEO's) are mainly shooting for practice, as they don't get much practice at work, and I applaud them for wanting to get better on their own time, but shouldn't they be shooting in open? To have them shooting in Production, with all the restrictions we have to follow, while they have a weight on the end of their gun, well, doesn't it or wouldn't it, skew the match results? if it were just for practice, then open would suit them just fine, right?

Do the rules support them shooting in production?

What would you, as an MD, do?

Is this the LEOs first club match or shoots regularly at the club? Is he a USPSA member or just checking out our sport? Shoot any other divisions? Did you advise the LEO about the rules?

We have students from the Command and General Staff College (CGSC) at Ft. Leavenworth, KS come out to shoot wearing their web/molle gear. Don't remember anyone making a big deal out of this. We welcome them to shoot with us cause we know they are not there to try to win a local club match.. Just trying to get trigger time before they leave the area.

[Skydiver]

So, are we SURE that gun lights are not authorized in LIMITED Division, also? Just want to clarify that before assuming they have to shoot Open.

Not allowed. See Appendix D2/D3 #14.

[Chuck Anderson]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

First off, I've never seen any officer show up in "FULL" duty gear. Bits and pieces yes, duty rig yes, everything, no. Second, if he wanted to take the light off it would be a non issue. If he really wants to argue the point and is there for training, then it really doesn't matter, Open is fine.

Personally I don't want to be in a position of shortcutting division rules for every widget that someone wants to claim is for duty carry. Holster position, magazine pouches, that makes sense. Lights, lasers, red dots, uh no. It's a lot easier to have a bright clean line in this case than it is to have a different interpretation at every different venue.

Thanks Chuck, for the response. BTW, we did have a LEO shoot in a match in January wearing everything I think that he could carry (cuffs, taser, baton, everything, I think!)

Was he wearing body armor? If not I'm betting he was just wearing the belt.

[Craig N]

Grumpy,

Speaking as a now retired LEO did you ever go up to the guy in question and inform him that he was technically in violation of the rules for shooting in production?

I'll bet that:

A. He had NO idea he was breaking any rules by shooting with his flashlight on.

B. If you approached him about it he probably would have thanked you for informing him about the rules.

My last couple years on we had switched from plain jane model 19s to the light rail model 17 Glocks and it was just a couple seconds work to remove the flashlight from the rail.

IMHO The MD and RO's were wrong for not approaching these guys and informing them of the rules and I'll bet $ that the guys would like it if someone would talk to them about the rules and where they can get a copy of them etc...

JK

Actually, I have mentioned to at least one of the LEO'S, just in passing, and again the reply was, we (I) am just doing this for practice, which is quite clear, as they use cover, look from side to side before showing clear and holstering. Like I said, I have no problem with them practicing, but competing in production is just not the place they should be, in my opinion. I on the other hand, am not practicing per se at the match, and I wish to compete with others in my division on equal footing.

I was at my 1st IPDA match this weekend and there was an Air Marshall there. He did his usual area check and looked behind when he holstered. He must have trained to practice his presentation because he did it a few times out of habit and one of the ROs told him he could get in a trouble for that since it was ghosting. He also shot within the rules of the game and kicked butt LOL.

[Craig N]

Nothing in 5.2.8 requires them to register as LE.

True, but at that point, if they don't register as LEO, then what's to stop me from putting a light on the end of my muzzle and shooting in Production? Either they register as LEO, and can shoot the match in their duty gear, or they register as a civilian, and shoot in open with their duty gear...

I think that should be corrected. If the LEO is going to shoot the match using the LEO exemption to division requires, I think the shooter should be identified as LEO. This allows everyone to know he was really shooting a different match.

Though the LEO isn't a Division he is shooting a different match like the way the Single Stack shooter shoots a different match. He should be able to see how he did the overall, but his comparision in the Division will be skewed because of his duty rig.

He's carrying more weight, using a slower holster (Todd J doing a stupid fast draw from a level 3 aside- the rest of the frickin' universe is significantly delayed by the Lvl 3 over the open top kydex holster), and the closed top holsters. If he has a flashlight it's a minor offset to the rest of his handicaps.

If he beats you with those handicaps- waaaaaa. It's like getting beat by a Single Stacker when yer shooting Limited; you got beat.

You're making an assumption they are using a level 3 duty rig, or flap holsters for that matter. My duty rig was a Safariland 6280 with Bianchi Accu-Mold open top mag pouches. Although I can't we do have a guy in the office who can routinely do .7 and the occasional .6 draw from that particular holster. I'll check with John, but I'd wager his answer is going to be no flashlights.

I would also add that my current "duty" rig is a Safariland 6378 ALS holster with a Crimson Trace Lightguard on a Glock 19, and a Blade Tech mag pouch holding a Glock 17 mag with an Arredondo Base pad on it. I run the same holster for competition in 3 Gun but I wouldn't try to get away with a light attached.

This made me think, will the gun fit and hold into a holster made for a light without the light? I know most kydex holsters won't lock in with out the light on it.

[GrumpyOne]

I can accept this. However do we really want and LEO shooting his full read FULL duty gear with an M&P shooting Open?

First off, I've never seen any officer show up in "FULL" duty gear. Bits and pieces yes, duty rig yes, everything, no. Second, if he wanted to take the light off it would be a non issue. If he really wants to argue the point and is there for training, then it really doesn't matter, Open is fine.

Personally I don't want to be in a position of shortcutting division rules for every widget that someone wants to claim is for duty carry. Holster position, magazine pouches, that makes sense. Lights, lasers, red dots, uh no. It's a lot easier to have a bright clean line in this case than it is to have a different interpretation at every different venue.

Thanks Chuck, for the response. BTW, we did have a LEO shoot in a match in January wearing everything I think that he could carry (cuffs, taser, baton, everything, I think!)

Was he wearing body armor? If not I'm betting he was just wearing the belt.

That, I don't know.....And, he may have just been wearing the belt, with all the accoutrements. But he had a crap load of gear on it! That, I respect. He was running around, wearing all that stuff, while we were out there in just jeans and a t-shirt....And, when I talked with him, he said he was just doing it for practice....And he did have a light on his gun....

[xdrocker]

Here's a quick question? At this local shoot do they give out awards or discounts for next months match or anything or is it just looking at the paper and having bragging rights till next month? If it's just braggin' rights I don't see the problem with it. Technically yea, he's wrong. But I would much rather have my local LEO's proficient with there duty gear instead over fretting over which division they go in. I'm pretty sure most shooters there know who he is and if he finishes ahead of them, they know that he really didn't. The ONLY concern I would have would be the 10 round limit. I know, now I'm picking and choosing the rules I like but the reality of it is, it's been said on here that most people would like it if more LEOs and military would shoot and here we have one and someone is worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I just don't get it.

[GrumpyOne]

First, I want to say, I applaud all the officers who actually want to practice a skill which could save their life or someone else's life and welcome their participation in any match they care to shoot. We all know that they don't get enough range time training to really meet the needs of their job, so any range time is better than none. But officers, please remember this is a game/sport to us, and we have rules that must be followed to make it an equitable competition. Regardless of whether you think of it as "practice", "training" or any reasonable facisimile thereof, to us it's still a game, and we have to play by the rules.

If you want to practice at a sanctioned USPSA match, with your duty gear (light, laser, ghost site, whatever), please write down open for your division. If you want to play the game at a USPSA match, then choose an appropriate division which fits your weapon of choice and gear, and play the game with us! The more, the merrier!

[GrumpyOne]

Here's a quick question? At this local shoot do they give out awards or discounts for next months match or anything or is it just looking at the paper and having bragging rights till next month? If it's just braggin' rights I don't see the problem with it. Technically yea, he's wrong. But I would much rather have my local LEO's proficient with there duty gear instead over fretting over which division they go in. I'm pretty sure most shooters there know who he is and if he finishes ahead of them, they know that he really didn't. The ONLY concern I would have would be the 10 round limit. I know, now I'm picking and choosing the rules I like but the reality of it is, it's been said on here that most people would like it if more LEOs and military would shoot and here we have one and someone is worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I just don't get it.

I'm not worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I'm worried about others getting beat by someone not following the rules, while they are following the rules.

If you want them proficient, they can get just as much practice in open as any other division, and not step on anyone else's toe's doing it.

Besides, open seems a much more viable option for them to be in, as it more closely resembles their true life situation (mags loaded up, flashlight/laser, gear placed where they want it, etc.)

[Joe4d]

If I issued a ruling as an RO, clearly inline with the rule book, and a MD or RM, didnt have the balls to enforce the rules, or allowed special people to get by with special treatment and overruled me I would hand them the timer, and tell them to RO themselves as I'm done.

[Chuck Anderson]

This made me think, will the gun fit and hold into a holster made for a light without the light? I know most kydex holsters won't lock in with out the light on it.

Some will, some won't. Most will work at some level of retention. If it won't work, then shoot Open. I'm always happy to see fellow LE hit the range. But there is no reason to make all sorts of exceptions for them. They can find a way to shoot in accordance with the rules or they can shoot for no score. Lots of options. If they have the competetive drive they'll sort their gear out. If they don't they can still get all sorts of practice in.

[xdrocker]

Here's a quick question? At this local shoot do they give out awards or discounts for next months match or anything or is it just looking at the paper and having bragging rights till next month? If it's just braggin' rights I don't see the problem with it. Technically yea, he's wrong. But I would much rather have my local LEO's proficient with there duty gear instead over fretting over which division they go in. I'm pretty sure most shooters there know who he is and if he finishes ahead of them, they know that he really didn't. The ONLY concern I would have would be the 10 round limit. I know, now I'm picking and choosing the rules I like but the reality of it is, it's been said on here that most people would like it if more LEOs and military would shoot and here we have one and someone is worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I just don't get it.

I'm not worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I'm worried about others getting beat by someone not following the rules, while they are following the rules.

If you want them proficient, they can get just as much practice in open as any other division, and not step on anyone else's toe's doing it.

Besides, open seems a much more viable option for them to be in, as it more closely resembles their true life situation (mags loaded up, flashlight/laser, gear placed where they want it, etc.)

True that, and I have no valid argument against it. I just don't worry about it as much as others I guess. Local matches are about having fun for me. It's all good, to each there own.

[GrumpyOne]

Here's a quick question? At this local shoot do they give out awards or discounts for next months match or anything or is it just looking at the paper and having bragging rights till next month? If it's just braggin' rights I don't see the problem with it. Technically yea, he's wrong. But I would much rather have my local LEO's proficient with there duty gear instead over fretting over which division they go in. I'm pretty sure most shooters there know who he is and if he finishes ahead of them, they know that he really didn't. The ONLY concern I would have would be the 10 round limit. I know, now I'm picking and choosing the rules I like but the reality of it is, it's been said on here that most people would like it if more LEOs and military would shoot and here we have one and someone is worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I just don't get it.

I'm not worried about getting beat by someone with a flashlight. I'm worried about others getting beat by someone not following the rules, while they are following the rules.

If you want them proficient, they can get just as much practice in open as any other division, and not step on anyone else's toe's doing it.

Besides, open seems a much more viable option for them to be in, as it more closely resembles their true life situation (mags loaded up, flashlight/laser, gear placed where they want it, etc.)

True that, and I have no valid argument against it. I just don't worry about it as much as others I guess. Local matches are about having fun for me. It's all good, to each there own.

Yeah, local matches are "fun" matches, to most of us too...But we also use them to see how much we have improved from the previous match, against our friends or others...When someone shoots in your division, and the results are skewed because of something like what we are talking about here, then all semblance of progress is also skewed...

[MarkCO]

Grumpy, it is overwhelmingly clear that the rules were violated. I applaud you for seeking the collective advice, even if there remain some who choose to ignore the rules, you have not. No need to continuosuly defend your solid position, just to figure out what to do about it. Best wishes for a good result.

[Nik Habicht]

Here's a quick question? At this local shoot do they give out awards or discounts for next months match or anything or is it just looking at the paper and having bragging rights till next month?

The Mid-Atlantic Section, for one, pays prize money to division and class winners at local (Level 1) matches....

[Steven Cline]

Nothing in 5.2.8 requires them to register as LE.

True, but at that point, if they don't register as LEO, then what's to stop me from putting a light on the end of my muzzle and shooting in Production? Either they register as LEO, and can shoot the match in their duty gear, or they register as a civilian, and shoot in open with their duty gear...

I think that should be corrected. If the LEO is going to shoot the match using the LEO exemption to division requires, I think the shooter should be identified as LEO. This allows everyone to know he was really shooting a different match.

Though the LEO isn't a Division he is shooting a different match like the way the Single Stack shooter shoots a different match. He should be able to see how he did the overall, but his comparision in the Division will be skewed because of his duty rig.

He's carrying more weight, using a slower holster (Todd J doing a stupid fast draw from a level 3 aside- the rest of the frickin' universe is significantly delayed by the Lvl 3 over the open top kydex holster), and the closed top holsters. If he has a flashlight it's a minor offset to the rest of his handicaps.

If he beats you with those handicaps- waaaaaa. It's like getting beat by a Single Stacker when yer shooting Limited; you got beat.

You're making an assumption they are using a level 3 duty rig, or flap holsters for that matter. My duty rig was a Safariland 6280 with Bianchi Accu-Mold open top mag pouches. Although I can't we do have a guy in the office who can routinely do .7 and the occasional .6 draw from that particular holster. I'll check with John, but I'd wager his answer is going to be no flashlights.

I would also add that my current "duty" rig is a Safariland 6378 ALS holster with a Crimson Trace Lightguard on a Glock 19, and a Blade Tech mag pouch holding a Glock 17 mag with an Arredondo Base pad on it. I run the same holster for competition in 3 Gun but I wouldn't try to get away with a light attached.

Yer correct, I am assuming and that would be because every uniformed LEO in the Bexar County area is using a retention holster and flap over mag holders. If I saw an LEO running a ghost holster claiming it was duty gear I'd engage my brain and call foul. I reserve the right to do this.

I've seen some using the special holsters to accommodate lights on their Glocks. If an LEO shows with that holster and light on his Glock 22 he can shoot Limited, Limited-10, or Production following the appropriate capacity restrictions. (eta: or Open)

Why? Because the intent of the rule is clear to me that we want LEOs [shooting in] our sport and the fastest way to discourage that is to go all rule nazi at a Level I when there is a exemption for them to use their gear as they would carry it on duty.

[editted for horrible typos]

Edited February 7, 2012 by Steven Cline

[Nik Habicht]

Steven,

with all due respect, you are wrong on two fronts: On the rules -- flashlights on a gun are considered optics, open is the only available division at that point.

And on the concept that the only two options are to throw the rules out of the window or to "go all rule nazi" and drive the officer away from the sport.

When you became a CRO, you agreed to uphold the rules -- as written and interpreted by NROI, not by you -- and I've got to believe, based on your posts here, that you're bright enough to explain it to a competitor, without driving them away....

In my experience LEOs at a match aren't all that different from the rest of the folks who try the sport: They either get hooked, and think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it's not for them, and we hear a myriad number or reasons why they won't come back.....

[Steven Cline]

Steven,

with all due respect, you are wrong on two fronts: On the rules -- flashlights on a gun are considered optics, open is the only available division at that point.

And on the concept that the only two options are to throw the rules out of the window or to "go all rule nazi" and drive the officer away from the sport.

When you became a CRO, you agreed to uphold the rules -- as written and interpreted by NROI, not by you -- and I've got to believe, based on your posts here, that you're bright enough to explain it to a competitor, without driving them away....

In my experience LEOs at a match aren't all that different from the rest of the folks who try the sport: They either get hooked, and think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it's not for them, and we hear a myriad number or reasons why they won't come back.....

Nik,

I appreciate you response.

Allow me to take a little more time to explain my position so that I am not understand and also clarrify an important point:

I had not seen the DNROI interpreation posted above before I responded to Chuck's observation on my post from the previous page. Of course I follow the rules. Before the read the DNROI's response I was responding to a bunch of people arguing their interpreation. I shared my interpretation and intention on how to handle an LEO showing with his duty gear which included a weapon mounted light. The rule gave me authority

My position is that we've written an exception to the rules for LEOs to shoot using their duty gear and we've reversed on part of that exception and I think it is wrong and somewhat illogical. I think the reversal on the exception is more harmful than the full application of the exception.

I am arguing for an understanding that Level I matches are different than Level II and up- evidenced that we have rules clearly exempting Level I matches from some of the rules. (I am not arguing for throwing the rulebook out the window) Further we have exemptions for LEOs using duty gear. (Clearly we must want to encourage LEOs to come shoot our sport and practice with their duty set up) So in the context of having both a practice of seeing Level I matches as a little different and having an exemption for LEO to use their duty gear, why are having such an adverse reaction to the duty equipment weapon mounted light?

Just apply the LEO exemption to their duty light at the Level I match. Get 'em out shooting.

I dislike the term "rule Nazi," it's been used against my reading of the rules. I find myself in the rare position of being at odds with the DNROI interpreation. But, OK, we can't all agree on everything all the time. I did, in this case, see it as blind adhearance to "rules" outside of context and intentions.

Finally, to the myriad of reasons they won't come back which is where a lot of my focus is. Applying the interpretation as given forces an LEO to shoot in Open aginst real Optics (not defined optics), compensators, speed rig holsters and mag pouches and monster magazines. (I love 'em all- bring on the equiment race!) Or, it forces him to shoot his equipment different than how he goes to work with it. We know what is going to happen when the officer attempts to compete in Open with his duty equipment- he's gonna get smoked. And, too shooters blame their poor performance on everything but shooting prowess in most cases.

I appreciate your confidence that I could explain the current intrepration without driving people away. I believe I can do that. I am uncertain I can do so and have it survive the ego busting finish in Open. If USPSA gives me and others acting as MDs at local matches the LEO exemption for duty lights and I think I have a better chance of keeping them coming. Give me a little more of blank check than the current interpretation.

///

Of course, one Detective I know carries a Glock 18... boy, oh boy, ain't that a pandora's box or a request for a bit more of a blank check for LEOs and their duty equipment?

[Steven Cline]

Email to John:

Question came up re: cops using flashlights on Production pistols. There are more people out there than I expected that seem to think the "related equipment" clause allows gun lights. I thought it applied to holster, magazine pouches and their respective positions. Is this more broad than I thought?

Chuck

Email from John

Not to my knowledge, what you think it is, to me is how I would rule on it.

John

Other than being about the most poorly written sentence I've ever seen out of John, seems pretty clear no lights.

Yep and it tells me how to rule. Not how I want to rule, but how I have to rule.

[Skydiver]

Assuming we follow the logic that the allowance for duty gear provides for a flashlight being legal in Production for LEO with the argument that is how the officer would employ the gun normally, then why even download the mags to just 10 rounds? If the way they would normally employ the gun is to have the mags fully loaded, why make a concession for the flashlight with argument, but not use the same argument for the round count?

Also following the logic that if the gun is normally used with a flashlight attached, if the gun had a rail mounted laser instead, would it also be legal for Production?

As sphinx like JA's response was, it seems clear that the correct way to interpret 5.2.8 is that the exceptions for LEO does not extend to the gun.