Glock 27 .40 Kaboom this weekend

[Rocky Patel]

What did the brass look like?

Never did find it. The range owner looked quit hard for it. He said it must have just blew to bits.

[Rocky Patel]

Also at the club another good bit of advise is to get a bullet checker thing. Like a block with a hole in it the size of the bullet caliber you are making. After making a complete round they said put every bullet in the checker to see if it goes in with ease and out with ease, if not throw it out. If it does not slip in there then the size is out of spec and probably suffering from stress/pressure issues. Hard for the naked eye to see but the checker thing will catch some of those. If you get one that doesn't go in or all the way in get a magnifying glass and check it out. you may see tiny hair like stress fractures. Throw it out.. I love good advise!!

oh.. whether you see anything or not, still throw it out if it did not fit..

Edited February 1, 2012 by Rocky Patel

[jdknotts1]

Not sure if anyone has suggested this yet, but is there a possibility the barrel block was cracked prior to this happening? I have heard of Glock taking a 10mm and hammering it into a .40 cal and shooting it off. Never seen it but heard it (this means its true).

How old was the pistol? Any hot loads being cranked repetitively out of it?

It was about 10 years old give or take a few. Bought used from a gun store. the box, before it exploded, kicked harder than factory rounds. 4.4 to 4.5 of TG 1.125OAL 180FMJ. Other than that box just store bought white box.

Watching your video doesn't seem like there was any difference in the bang from the first shot to the blown up gun. I would take the barrel to a gunsmith or someone with a good eye for such things. Time and time again I've overlooked the obvious until something went wrong. The theory behind it being a double load is possible, but not the only possibilty.

[Rocky Patel]

Not sure if anyone has suggested this yet, but is there a possibility the barrel block was cracked prior to this happening? I have heard of Glock taking a 10mm and hammering it into a .40 cal and shooting it off. Never seen it but heard it (this means its true).

How old was the pistol? Any hot loads being cranked repetitively out of it?

It was about 10 years old give or take a few. Bought used from a gun store. the box, before it exploded, kicked harder than factory rounds. 4.4 to 4.5 of TG 1.125OAL 180FMJ. Other than that box just store bought white box.

Watching your video doesn't seem like there was any difference in the bang from the first shot to the blown up gun. I would take the barrel to a gunsmith or someone with a good eye for such things. Time and time again I've overlooked the obvious until something went wrong. The theory behind it being a double load is possible, but not the only possibilty.

That's the problem. There seems to be a couple possibilities. It's impossible to figure out what really happened for certain. I'll try taking it to a gunsmith and see what they say. Then for giggles take it to glock and see what they say.. Glock is about 15 minutes from my house.

[jdknotts1]

Hell I would skip the gunsmith then and go straight to Glock. I'm sure they have seen this many times and can evaluate the cause. They may even make it right for you, never know.. Good luck and I'd like to hear what they say

[Braxton1]

What if the crimp was not enough and there was set back?

No amount of bullet setback is going to produce that type of catastrophic pistol failure. What you have described sounds like a double-charge.

With all due respect to the gentleman from Colorado: Not so fast... Because of the small volume available in a 40 case (at conventional OALs - 1.125"), ANY setback will have a huge impact on the remaining volume and, subsequently, pressures.

A certain manufacturer of polymer-framed firearms did a pressure test study with H.P. White Laboratories after the kB phenomenon came out. They shortened a bullet by .030" with no other changes. Pressures DOUBLED. Considering the narrow window that Titegroup has because of its speed, I'd say that setback is a distinct possibility.

I agree with the others who said "Send it back to Smyrna". The worst that they can say is "Sorry".

Edited February 1, 2012 by Braxton1

[ima45dv8]

What if the crimp was not enough and there was set back?

No amount of bullet setback is going to produce that type of catastrophic pistol failure. What you have described sounds like a double-charge.

With all due respect to the gentleman from Colorado: Not so fast... Because of the small volume available in a 40 case (at conventional OALs - 1.125"), ANY setback will have a huge impact on the remaining volume and, subsequently, pressures.

Yeah. The pressure increase in shortened .40s is non-linear. A little bit of setback can cause huge increases in pressure.

[Rocky Patel]

What if the crimp was not enough and there was set back?

No amount of bullet setback is going to produce that type of catastrophic pistol failure. What you have described sounds like a double-charge.

With all due respect to the gentleman from Colorado: Not so fast... Because of the small volume available in a 40 case (at conventional OALs - 1.125"), ANY setback will have a huge impact on the remaining volume and, subsequently, pressures.

A certain manufacturer of polymer-framed firearms did a pressure test study with H.P. White Laboratories after the kB phenomenon came out. They shortened a bullet by .030" with no other changes. Pressures DOUBLED. Considering the narrow window that Titegroup has because of its speed, I'd say that setback is a distinct possibility.

I agree with the others who said "Send it back to Smyrna". The worst that they can say is "Sorry".

Point taken. Definitely still a possibility. Will do on taking it back to GLOCK

[Rocky Patel]

Summary of what I learned NOT covered in the typical instructions (that came with my reloader.)

1. Don't watch TV. Don't watch anything while charging the bullet. ( Ideally don't watch TV at all. Watch the bullet show in front of you)

2. Spit up into 2 phases.

Phase 1 - Size, deprime and prime........

Phase 2 - Charge, Use a lock out die for additional saftey measure, Seat then crimp.

3. Measure powder drop often.

4. Measure OAL often

5. Check set back by pushing the bullet against a flat hard object i.e the desk, to see if there is any set back. Use your calipers to measure. If so crimp tighter.

6. Ideally for beginners use a powder that fills more than half of the case for the load you are loading. So if you double charge it will overflow the case and be more apparent.

7. Use a case gauge on every finished bullet. Do not put a finished bullet into a box until it passes the case gauge test. This way if it is in a box you know they are good to go. (seems like a good practice)

8. Load all bullets in a tray bullet side down and check the level of every primer for correct seating. All should be flush or just below the case. None should be angled or protruding.

9. Start off with a powder that is more forgiving for beginners. Power pistol and WSF seems to be good choices. Slower burn and needs more powder to meet your power factor. Another words a little less potent would be better.

10. Measure your crimps.

11. Wear your safety glasses when reloading. Primers can blow leading to a chain reaction. Then all the primers can blow. Taking out your eye in the process. (BTW: I heard static can set them off. It happened to another guy in the forum)

12. Store your powder in smaller approved containers preferably not all in the same place. If one goes that one thing if one goes talking all of them with it is a whole new ball game.

13. Tap your powder mechanism wile charging to make sure you get correct amounts. Sometimes some powder stick to the walls due to static cling. In my case tapping really helps get consistent drops. I tested this.

14. Loading longer than the MINIMUM OAL is advisable. Gives you some cusion.

15. THIS IS GOOD INFORMATION (http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf)

"Look for powder where the load I want is going to be around 0.5cc (the second column), which fills a .40 case around half-way. You can see that .5cc of titegroup is around 5.9 grains. You already know that's a LOT of titegroup. That powder is not fluffy enough for my personal tastes.

OTOH, .5cc of power pistol is around 5.6 grains, well below the starting load for most bullet weights (this makes a good plinking round, although the recoil is definitely stouter than you would get with a faster-burning powder). If you look in your reloading manual, you will even see there are some compressed charges listed for power pistol, meaning you can fill the case up so far that you have to compress the powder with the bullet when you seat it, and you still won't blow up. That makes it forgiving of mistakes.

If we look at WSF, we see that 0.5cc is about 5.9 grains. Checking our handydandy load data online we see that the max load for wsf and 180 grain jacketed bullet is 5.8 grains, which tells us wsf is fluffier than titegroup, but not as fluffy as n320 or power pistol. I don't know if a double charge would overflow the case or not, but it should certainly be obvious on a careful inspection."

16. Take it slow. This is not a race even though the manufacturers say the loader can so XXXX per hour. That's for the experts!!!! Don't try to meet that till you get good at it.

17. Lear how to inspect a case before using it. Learn to read for pressure signs, splits, cracks, dents, chips gouges etc

and 2 more

18. If you are going to blow you self up do it with a plastic gun (god forbid you ever do) But it seems more forgiving than a all metal gun

19. The playboy channel can lead to premature ejection of all the parts in your gun..

I hope someone pins this for the newbies..

Did I miss anything???

Rocky Patel

Edited February 1, 2012 by Rocky Patel

[Scoobb]

I may have missed something here but I thought you mentioned you loaded a double charged round and weighed the whole cartridge compared to the others. Is it possible you mixed the double charge round in with the rounds you were intending on shooting.

I have had one squib ever, loading on a single stage at that, stupid mistake, but it did make me realize I wasn't perfect

[Rotwang]

Just a note, the Lee powder measure will never double charge as it has the disc cavities, however it is prone to under charges if the disk does not cycle back and forth completely, sometimes it has a tendency to stick. when mine was new, it did not do it, after about 15k rounds, it started developing it, however it could of been that the powder measure/disk got a tad dirty and was sticking.

If you have the spring return on the Lee Powder measure you can get a double charge by lowering the brass out of the powder measure, that's about an inch, and then putting it back up into the measure. Very easy to do while you're screwing around with anything else on the press.

[Rugster]

Just a note, the Lee powder measure will never double charge as it has the disc cavities, however it is prone to under charges if the disk does not cycle back and forth completely, sometimes it has a tendency to stick. when mine was new, it did not do it, after about 15k rounds, it started developing it, however it could of been that the powder measure/disk got a tad dirty and was sticking.

If you have the spring return on the Lee Powder measure you can get a double charge by lowering the brass out of the powder measure, that's about an inch, and then putting it back up into the measure. Very easy to do while you're screwing around with anything else on the press.

life if you lower the ram just a little bit and realize you didnt seat a bullet, so you grab a bullet, and raise the ram back up = double charge

[Rocky Patel]

I may have missed something here but I thought you mentioned you loaded a double charged round and weighed the whole cartridge compared to the others. Is it possible you mixed the double charge round in with the rounds you were intending on shooting.

I have had one squib ever, loading on a single stage at that, stupid mistake, but it did make me realize I wasn't perfect

Yes I did that when I came home after the KB. To see what a double charge weighed out to.

While making that batch, before the KB, I weighed the 2 full boxes(each bullet) when I was done making it to compare the weight of each bullet compared to the rest of the 100 bullets. At that time just looking for anything that stood out. Obviously they ware not all the same but close enough at that point not to alarm me. I didn't know exactly how much a double charge weighed but I did know it would probably be 4.4-4.5 grains heavier than the rest. That I am sure of. BUT those first 10-15 rounds that weren't part of the 2 full boxes. I never did weigh them. And when packing up to go to the range(The next day), it was a stupid after though. It went something like this,"Hmmm.., I wonder how much lighter recoil those 4.1gn bullets will be?" So I grabbed them and stuck it in the bag to go with me. The thought never crossed my mind that I did not thoroughly QA those like I did the 2 boxes. (i.e weigh them, measure each end every one carefully for length, one or so may have had a super crimp.) I fired off one whole box of the weighed out ones. No problem. 3 into the batch of 15......KKKABBBOOMMMMMM...

You know it's actually helping me by having to rehash the whole incident over and over again.. It's burned into memory forever...

[Rocky Patel]

Just a note, the Lee powder measure will never double charge as it has the disc cavities, however it is prone to under charges if the disk does not cycle back and forth completely, sometimes it has a tendency to stick. when mine was new, it did not do it, after about 15k rounds, it started developing it, however it could of been that the powder measure/disk got a tad dirty and was sticking.

If you have the spring return on the Lee Powder measure you can get a double charge by lowering the brass out of the powder measure, that's about an inch, and then putting it back up into the measure. Very easy to do while you're screwing around with anything else on the press.

Yup.

[Smo11]

I had a glock 35 go kaboom in my hand about 2 tears ago i was shooting a stage weak hand when it went kaboom I was shooting 180grain rnfp lead bullets with 5.0 grains of 231 through a kkm precision barrel I loaded them on a single stage press and I know I didn't double charge any but what I didn't do was put a good enough taper crimp on that batch of bullets I tested that batch by pushing the bullets into my workbench by hand and I could deep seat every one I tried I think somehow the bullet that went kaboom got deep seated and dramatically increased the pressure

I will post some pics as soon as I figure out how

[98sr20ve]

It's too painful to read the whole thread so sorry if this has been covered. But I want to say a couple things since I own a Lee Classic Turret and a 650 and 550 in the past.

1) Setback is a possibility. I think it's unlikely. But you can check for it easy enough. Load some dummy rounds with your setup and brass. See if you can easily push the bullet in the case. If you can't it wasn't setback.

2) On a LCT you need to pull the handle 4 times for every time you drop a charge. The turret/powder measure is moving so it throws a little different loading Single Stage style vs auto-indexing. IF YOU DO THAT, the Lee Pro Auto Disc meters very well. Certainly well enough for Pistol and our sport.

3) I hope your not using the adjustable charge bar. It will not work welll with TiteGroup and that charge weight. It won't throw a double. But if set at 4.2 it can throw a squib or very light charge. THAT IS a distinct possibility. The discs will meter very well, like stated above. Adjustable charge bar is good for higher volume charges (not the same as weight).

4) A slight overcharge (.2 grs) will not blow up the gun. It takes a MAJOR setback or a double charge. The more you pull the case out to measure, the more you interact with the press, the more likely it is for you to screw something up. Use the auto index feature, load at a steady consistent pace. Look in the case before every bullet goes on the case. Over diligence can cause issues because you get tired and make mistakes. Let the press do what it does and just pay attention to that powder charge.

[Rocky Patel]

It's too painful to read the whole thread so sorry if this has been covered. But I want to say a couple things since I own a Lee Classic Turret and a 650 and 550 in the past.

1) Setback is a possibility. I think it's unlikely. But you can check for it easy enough. Load some dummy rounds with your setup and brass. See if you can easily push the bullet in the case. If you can't it wasn't setback.

2) On a LCT you need to pull the handle 4 times for every time you drop a charge. The turret/powder measure is moving so it throws a little different loading Single Stage style vs auto-indexing. IF YOU DO THAT, the Lee Pro Auto Disc meters very well. Certainly well enough for Pistol and our sport.

3) I hope your not using the adjustable charge bar. It will not work welll with TiteGroup and that charge weight. It won't throw a double. But if set at 4.2 it can throw a squib or very light charge. THAT IS a distinct possibility. The discs will meter very well, like stated above. Adjustable charge bar is good for higher volume charges (not the same as weight).

4) A slight overcharge (.2 grs) will not blow up the gun. It takes a MAJOR setback or a double charge. The more you pull the case out to measure, the more you interact with the press, the more likely it is for you to screw something up. Use the auto index feature, load at a steady consistent pace. Look in the case before every bullet goes on the case. Over diligence can cause issues because you get tired and make mistakes. Let the press do what it does and just pay attention to that powder charge.

Last night I made a few bullets. Before I did so , I received the auto disk powder measure to upgrade to the PRO version that came with the powder bar a chain, a new hopper and the connector that allows you to swing the hopper . When I got it all together and was playing around with the powder charge bar, INDEED it could not drop anything less than like 5.x gr. Any smaller then it would be hit or miss if I got any powder at all. When the Kaboom happened i was using disks. Now I'm back to using the disk.

I put the crimp die back in the turret until it hit the shell holder and tightened the lock ring.then I put a seated bullet in the shell holder and screwed down the adjustment screw till it touched the bullet then lowered the handle and gave it one full turn(according to the instructions 1 full turn for a heavy crimp).. Guess what, I measured my 1.190 bullet then pushed it against the desk as hard as I could, when I remeasured it got smaller!!!

When I first started with the batch that went kaboom. I believe I had it set for a light crimp.. AHHA! Only after a few did I decide to go heavier to a full turn. This was the stage where I was still fiddling. Thank god the full turn was enough to not go kaboom. Since I've used 3 boxes of them. (They did get smaller with my test last night mind you. but I guess not enough to blow up starting at an OAL of 1.190) That had to be it.

That bullet(The kaboom bullet) was set for 4.1gr and at max 1.125OAL with a light crimp ( had to have been one of those light crimp bullets). Considering I still got setback with a "heavy" crimp, that bullet would have never survived being slammed into the chamber and got shorter..... Leading to KKKKAAABBBBOOOOMMMM!!!! Best explanation so far!!!!

Now I have it set for more than 1 turn like a turn and a half. And I cannot get it to budge one bit.

[motosapiens]

I put the crimp die back in the turret until it hit the shell holder and tightened the lock ring.then I put a seated bullet in the shell holder and screwed down the adjustment screw till it touched the bullet then lowered the handle and gave it one full turn(according to the instructions 1 full turn for a heavy crimp).. Guess what, I measured my 1.190 bullet then pushed it against the desk as hard as I could, when I remeasured it got smaller!!!

When I first started with the batch that went kaboom. I believe I had it set for a light crimp.. AHHA! Only after a few did I decide to go heavier to a full turn. This was the stage where I was still fiddling. Thank god the full turn was enough to not go kaboom. Since I've used 3 boxes of them. (They did get smaller with my test last night mind you. but I guess not enough to blow up starting at an OAL of 1.190) That had to be it.

That bullet(The kaboom bullet) was set for 4.1gr and at max 1.125OAL with a light crimp ( had to have been one of those light crimp bullets). Considering I still got setback with a "heavy" crimp, that bullet would have never survived being slammed into the chamber and got shorter..... Leading to KKKKAAABBBBOOOOMMMM!!!! Best explanation so far!!!!

interesting. i don't think i can get my 40 bullets to move even with no crimp at all. the lee sizing dies size the case small enough that you can see the slight bulge where the bullet is.

[Rocky Patel]

I put the crimp die back in the turret until it hit the shell holder and tightened the lock ring.then I put a seated bullet in the shell holder and screwed down the adjustment screw till it touched the bullet then lowered the handle and gave it one full turn(according to the instructions 1 full turn for a heavy crimp).. Guess what, I measured my 1.190 bullet then pushed it against the desk as hard as I could, when I remeasured it got smaller!!!

When I first started with the batch that went kaboom. I believe I had it set for a light crimp.. AHHA! Only after a few did I decide to go heavier to a full turn. This was the stage where I was still fiddling. Thank god the full turn was enough to not go kaboom. Since I've used 3 boxes of them. (They did get smaller with my test last night mind you. but I guess not enough to blow up starting at an OAL of 1.190) That had to be it.

That bullet(The kaboom bullet) was set for 4.1gr and at max 1.125OAL with a light crimp ( had to have been one of those light crimp bullets). Considering I still got setback with a "heavy" crimp, that bullet would have never survived being slammed into the chamber and got shorter..... Leading to KKKKAAABBBBOOOOMMMM!!!! Best explanation so far!!!!

interesting. i don't think i can get my 40 bullets to move even with no crimp at all. the lee sizing dies size the case small enough that you can see the slight bulge where the bullet is.

Definitely not in my case. I can push it against a desk even with a full turn crimp . Maybe I'm trying to hard. The dies I have are the lee carbide 4 die set . Maybe it's the type of bullet. I'm using precision delta 180 grain fmj. Would they be slipperier than others?

[98sr20ve]

Crimp is not what is meant to hold a bullet in place. Try it again. Even with no crimp you should not be able to move the bullet by hand. Case tension holds the bullet in place on a pistol.

Also, The safest way to load on the LCT is in auto index mode. 1 case goes in and it doesn't come out till it's loaded and finished. Visually you will know if you have enough powder. A fixed disc can't not overcharge by much. It's just not going to happen. But it can throw light. But you would see it if it was really light. Weighting every 10 rounds gets old and messes up your rhythm. It's also a great way to get a squib. NEVER have more then one throw of powder out of the bench. If you do it can lead to a double.

Minor setback was not your problem. Your kidding yourself if you think that is what it was. It was a double charge or a MAJOR setback.

[Rocky Patel]

Crimp is not what is meant to hold a bullet in place. Try it again. Even with no crimp you should not be able to move the bullet by hand. Case tension holds the bullet in place on a pistol.

Also, The safest way to load on the LCT is in auto index mode. 1 case goes in and it doesn't come out till it's loaded and finished. Visually you will know if you have enough powder. A fixed disc can't not overcharge by much. It's just not going to happen. But it can throw light. But you would see it if it was really light. Weighting every 10 rounds gets old and messes up your rhythm. It's also a great way to get a squib. NEVER have more then one throw of powder out of the bench. If you do it can lead to a double.

Minor setback was not your problem. Your kidding yourself if you think that is what it was. It was a double charge or a MAJOR setback.

Honestly I don't know. Some days I lean one way some days I lean the other. You could be right. I will test again.

[Seeker]

I know this thread is about .40 however, my experience with .45 has shown that the taper crimp as used on cartridges that headspace on the case mouth will not do anything to solve bullet setback. Only properly re-sized brass will insure that the bullet stays where we want it. I have had serious bullet set back issues when using a hornaday sizer with RP brass and Plated bullets. It did not matter how much crimp I used the bullet would continue to push in. In fact too much crimp appeared to exacerbate the problem. Switching to redding dies solved my sizing problem, and I only crimp enough to close the bell. All cartridges are then measured in a LE Wilson case gauge.

[NoahK]

Im guessing it could be a defective barrel too, the Lee setup may throw out differing charges, but are just as unlikely to double-charge as a Dillon press is, simply by design.

Sure, TG is a finicky powder, but that shouldnt play THIS large of a role in the Kaboomage. Was this a used pistol? How many rounds were down the pipe prior to the incident?

[ChrisMcCracken]

I did something similar my first batch of reloads, only I was loading .45 with clays. It was a much more forgiving combination. I determined that my round that I used to setup OAL and crimp but never charged with powder got mixed in with the rest. Instant squib and bulged barrel. My glock 30 looked like it had the mother of all jams with the barrel wedged into the front hole of the slide. I learned to always use spent brass and primer for my OAL. I doubt you had a double charge. Anyway, welcome to reloading. It's a good lesson to get out of the way so long as you didn't get hurt.

[perrysho]

Mr. Rocky Patel,

I will not venture a guess what caused your KB/

But will suggest the things I do.

Buy yourself a small desk reading light with a flex/adjustable neck, can get em at LOWES with em new type bulbs. About $20 !

Get a wire frame make-up mirrow 3X at the Dollar Store,($3 or $4), attach to the press so every time you place a bullet on a case you can look in the case. if you don't see powder at the right level DON'T place a bullet. Train yourself to look every time you pull the handle.

Buy youself a CHRONO, pay attention when at your press, wear safety glasses, run a ground wire from a mounting bolt on the press to an electrical ground or water pipe. Static Electricity can do strange things.

Be SAFE and careful, the fingers and eye ball you save may be yours,

Be very cautious where you get loading data and info, do your own research.

Re-loading is like a hobby in a hobby, don't do dumb sheit.

Perry

Edited February 10, 2012 by perrysho