michael1778 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Hi, thanks for reading. I'm doomed! Here is the deal. New to 3-gun, and hardly any rifle experience. No rifle experience over 100 yards. 42 year old with fairly good eyes for my age. Very comfortable with pistol (M&P Pro 9mm), based on some years of experience. Getting more comfortable with shotgun (CZ 712 utility). My first big 3-gun match will be Texas Multigun in late April. I signed up for Limited. Honestly, I was hankering to try WW2 division, but I'd have to spring for the M1 (which is cool) AND a single-stack .45 (not so cool after the M1 buy). The total $$$ amount and few opportunities to use that WW2 gear makes me wait and watch others this year at the match. I made a newbie mistake with Limited thinking I'd avoid a "Gear War". Within the past week I have seen some YouTube videos from that same match last year. One stage had 480 yard shots and strong wind. I call those "Mike will miss them for sure" targets. OK, here is what I have as a rifle: S&W M&P15 Sport (stock irons, that don't seem so great) 16" 1-in-8 barrel ACS stock MOE carbine length replacement hard guard MOE+ grip Magpul Pmags with windows (plenty of these) Trigger seems serviceable, for now. I see a few ways to go from here, in no particular order: Beg the match staff to allow me to switch to their Tactical division that allows magnifying optics (then get either the MTAC or Viper PST) Suck it up and buy an amazing 1x optic. Thinking Leupold Prismatic based on what threads I have seen in my searches here. Rework my irons on the existing rifle, like replace the front post, somehow get the front sight out near the muzzle, etc. some other way to approach this problem that I haven't considered. Hint: this is a great place for you, dear reader. I am eagerly anticipating your comments, concerns, and recommendations. I think I'm in over my head and am wide open to your suggestions. Many Thanks! -- Mike Edited January 31, 2012 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Like you said, get a Prismatic, 1-4x, or an extended sight radius. Get a free float - get an accurate barrel/nice trigger first. (4 MOA is what I'd call "serviceable") Be advised, one big reason that no one shoots limited is that it's friggin' hard and on top of that, the prize table isn't usually attractive. Don't start unless you are prepared to deal with failure and not give up. Practice calling dope for strong winds and know what they will do to your bullets. I am prepared for the wind being what it was last year. My holdoff to hit the 480 yard target was in the double digit range of feet with respect to elevation and windage. Edited January 31, 2012 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just practice with the rifle. Gongs are usually used at 400 and 500 yards at most ranges. That will get you in the area. There won't be a whole lot of shots at 480, most will be closer. Take 2-3 shots maybe at that long target and be done with it. Most shoot short to long, but there can be times where you shoot long to short targets. Concentrate on getting good with that gun at 200 yds and in, get your positions down(how you hold the gun) and make sure it is really zeroed, not just kind of zeroed. No need to spend any more-that is a perfectly fine rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I use an Aimpoint on my limited gun, but am considering going back to irons. The issue I have is that I was practicing on that range a couple of weeks ago and could not get the targets to fall with a 16" gun. I normally shoot a 20" gun and will be switching back. I was shooting factory xm193. I think most shoots will be under 300 yds. The wind on that range is really tough. I am looking into the Prismatic to replace my Aimpoint. Go with the free float handguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My first big match was Larue a few years back and I spent a lot of time on the rifle at longer ranges only to have my shotgun skills (lack of) kill me at the match. Make sure you spend time with each weapon in practice. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm sure you can change your division if you need to. but, we really would like to have you in Limited,........iron sights RULE!!! trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Cameron, will you be running the Prismatic again this season in Limited? Thanks for your reply. The video of you and your teammate at Texas in 2011 scared the crap out of me on the long rifle! I'll try not to be discouraged no matter what direction I choose. William, regardless of my configuration, I need a ton of practice. My hope is to get to my competition configuration soon so I can practice, practice, practice with it. Finding a good rifle range near me is my challenge. I'll try to be thoughtful about any further investment in the rifle, if warranted. Current rifle configuration out shoots me, for sure. Mike, I was worried about my 16" barrel and velocity over distance. Your comments bring that anxiety up a small amount. I would be interested in your thoughts on a Prismatic if you get one. My other 1x option under consideration was a Vortex SPARC (2 MOA dot). Pat, points well taken regarding general proficiency across all three guns. Thanks for the reminder. That reinforces my existing plans to concentrate on the shotgun and rifle with small investment in the pistol. I carry M&Ps all the time. I've standardized on them across 3 calibers. But practice with the belt and holster setup has to be done. Trapr, thanks for the assurance of a warm reception in Limited. Thank you all for your time and recommendations. I encourage more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't get too hung up on the long range gear and focus more on the Indian behind the bow and arrow. You could drop tons of money into an awesome sub-MOA rifle and still be off by >10MOA because of building a crappy position or having a high heart rate jittering your aim all over. Gear matters for sure, but focusing on your skills will get you far more bang for the buck, so to speak. I started with a 3-4MOA 16" carbine M4gery just like you and shot quite well with it at first because I had so many months of practice behind it. We were shooting up to 400yds at the time (up to 470yds now), and this only proved to be a problem when there were high winds, which I solved by going with heavier bullets. No extra gear needed. I really only started upgrading my gear to keep up with my squad, whose times just kept getting better and better. But I recently saw a guy running a tactical-ish 16" carbine kick most of our butts, so it's back to the Indian, not the arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Cameron, will you be running the Prismatic again this season in Limited? Thanks for your reply. The video of you and your teammate at Texas in 2011 scared the crap out of me on the long rifle! I'll try not to be discouraged no matter what direction I choose. I'll be running an Elcan 1-4x all year for the 3GN & 3-Man TO series. I briefly considered selling my Pris but it's such a great optic that I want to have the opportunity to jump back to it in 2013. If your rifle holds less than 4 MOA, all you really need to do is slap on a Pris and a free float. Like others have said, I wouldn't spend TOO much time on long range since it's usually just one stage at a match but in Limited, the long range stage WILL decide the top finishes (along with every other stage). If you can reload your shotgun, shoot a pistol well enough to clean a Texas star, and shoot a rifle at POA=POI elevation wise - and compensate for windage at 200-300 yards, you'll be fine for 90% of it if it was like last year's match (You'll be using those skills a lot more frequently). The fine dust there makes a great wind indicator when you miss. If it just hovers over the target, there is no wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainring Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm sure they would let you change to tac if you want, and the optics you mentioned would serve you well for that. Either stay like you are, or get the optic and move to tac - I wouldn't change anything else this time. You'll refine your want/need list at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizzle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hey Michael, I may have missed it but have you shot any local 3 gun matches? I'm sure you can find what gear works or doesn't at a local match for a fraction of the cost of finding out at a major. Plus, people are way more eager to let you use their gear at a club level match if you see something you might want to try out. Again, not sure if this is news to you or not but if it is you will also find out about something much more important than gear - the mental game, including being safe. There's nothing quite so humbling as getting DQ'd on your first stage at a major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Hey Michael, I may have missed it but have you shot any local 3 gun matches? I'm sure you can find what gear works or doesn't at a local match for a fraction of the cost of finding out at a major. Plus, people are way more eager to let you use their gear at a club level match if you see something you might want to try out. Again, not sure if this is news to you or not but if it is you will also find out about something much more important than gear - the mental game, including being safe. There's nothing quite so humbling as getting DQ'd on your first stage at a major. You raise an excellent set of issues. I am trying to get myself set up for two local/regional matches (nothing is actually "local" to me) before heading to Texas in April. I need more range time on all platforms, familiarity drills with my chosen kit, and actual match time 'on the clock' to see how this all shakes out. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Also, in case I do want to free-float the barrel, what are good handguards to consider that don't break the bank? And I like it to be long (I'll replace the gas block, that's fine) since I'm 6' 1". Thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Just another bump towards staying in Limited. LaRue is a 3GN "Pro Tour" match, so the top 64 will likely be shooting Tac-Scope. Now, that does not mean that the best 64 will be in TS, just those on the Pro Tour. Limited will teach you things that TS won't, namely, you don't need all that magnification. With all that has been said, I agree with Pat. Shotgun loading is the one thing that eats the lunch of more new 3 gunners than anything else. Add 20 seconds/stage because of loading slow, that is a lot more than the penalties for a few 400 to 500 yards targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Also, in case I do want to free-float the barrel, what are good handguards to consider that don't break the bank? And I like it to be long (I'll replace the gas block, that's fine) since I'm 6' 1". Thanks all! You will love the Troy TRX Extreme 15" handguard (not the VTAC series). It's ugly to some, but it's got full access to the ecosystem of TRX Extreme add-ons like the QD lugs and K9 barricade-grabber from Noveske, among other offerings from other companies. It's also tough as nails and very, very lightweight. I love mine so much I bought an extra one that's just sitting around waiting to someday be used in a build. Edited February 2, 2012 by dchang0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 You will love the Troy TRX Extreme 15" handguard (not the VTAC series). It's ugly to some, but it's got full access to the ecosystem of TRX Extreme add-ons like the QD lugs and K9 barricade-grabber from Noveske, among other offerings from other companies. It's also tough as nails and very, very lightweight. I love mine so much I bought an extra one that's just sitting around waiting to someday be used in a build. Dennis, thank you! I had seen that and forgotten about it. Looks like a great hand guard and the idea of other accessories is appealing. I'm now considering that one or the Samson Evolution. Mark, thanks for the extra info on the way that match could unfold with all the pros. I am leaning toward staying in Limited, but as part of that I'm favoring getting a Prismatic with DCD and reworking the layout of my rifle to better suit it. The iron purists might be disappointed, but a man needs to understand his weaknesses and compensate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Stay away from the Sparc. I am going on the second replacement. The blue tint hurts if it's not a clear day. I did shoot one at the Larue match last year. I did pretty well with it. It's just not durable enough for 3 gun. It's just going to end up on a 22. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Stay away from the Sparc. I am going on the second replacement. The blue tint hurts if it's not a clear day. I did shoot one at the Larue match last year. I did pretty well with it. It's just not durable enough for 3 gun. It's just going to end up on a 22. Mike Hi Mike, I'm sorry to hear about your problem. Thanks for the tip. I'll just pony up the money and go with the "pro's" choice for Limited 1x optic, the Prismatic. I'm component shopping right now, so your response was timely. I have to rework the rifle to best accommodate the Prismatic. So.....adjustable low profile gas block, 11" or 13" free float guard, and a comp that will fit my longer-term needs for this upper (not all competition). It will cost me, but I had always intended this rifle to be a working model for experimentation and learning how AR systems work at a low level. It's like Lego for grown ups. Mike S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) Glad to help, Mike-- Here's one little TRX Extreme add-on that most in my squad are eagerly awaiting: http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=k9-trx-da&cat=178&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title= Oh, and the Prismatic DCD is great and can be found for surprisingly low prices on ebay, both used and NOS. Do note, however, that the Prismatic is not super daylight bright, which may be a challenge in Texas daylight. Edited February 3, 2012 by dchang0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 No problem if you do decide to switch divisions, just send us a note via support@texasmultigun.com. Thanks, Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) No problem if you do decide to switch divisions, just send us a note via support@texasmultigun.com. Thanks, Justin Justin, thank you. I am eagerly anticipating your match in April. I hope to visit your facility in two weeks when I'm in San Antonio and Austin on business travel. I have decided to stay in Limited for this match and the two local/regional matches before that. One has to prepare..... But no irons on this gun, it's too much a struggle to configure this for good irons. As a final update for those that may care, I have been exploring a custom rifle for the near future but will compete with a modified M&P15 Sport for the next few matches. Cheaper in the short term and I get to see what is out there first before making a big commitment. New rifles take weeks or more anyway with production backlogs. The final set up will be: M&P15 Sport upper & lower S&W factory barrel with the carbine length gas (that's what you get for buying before you know!) ACS stock, as is MOE+ grip, as is stock trigger because it is not bad at all. Surprisingly good for inexpensive stock. JP Low Mass Bolt Carrier (on order) BCM Gunfighter charging handle (on order) Samson Evolution 11" hand guard (on order) Syrac Ordnance adjustable gas block; the new clamp style (on order. Had a nice talk with Jason about it when I called him) Corvette compensator (wanted something inexpensive and fairly effective Leupold Prismatic DCD, black matte The gas block will be the most challenging thing to swap out, but it will be ok. Thus, a future backup rifle will be born. I look forward to seeing some of you there in Texas!! Edited February 21, 2012 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 This probably goes without saying, but make sure to shoot it a bunch after all of your mods are done and before heading from NC to TX. Nothing like figuring out what's wrong with a gun at a match ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 This probably goes without saying, but make sure to shoot it a bunch after all of your mods are done and before heading from NC to TX. Nothing like figuring out what's wrong with a gun at a match ~Mitch Amen, brother. I'll shoot the heck out of it and give it a wicked shakedown. Fortunately the NC matches are a modest drive for me. If it craps the bed in Texas, I'll be disappointed, but have more time for my old friends in that area. I think all the parts will get here by Friday and I'll start in on the rework and live fire checkout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Load up 500 or so Sierra Match King 69gr. It's a nice bullet for any 1:8 twist. That plus the free float hand guard should get you close to 1 moa. Practice with 300 rounds and take 200 to the match. Learn your hold overs and if you can practice in wind, do so. If not at least run the calculators and draw your sight pictures on graph paper for 10 and 20mph full value cross wind. The 69gr SMK bullets will offer some small amount of wind forgiveness and tighten up your groups some. Drawing out your sight pictures will at least give you some frame of reference when you are there and the wind is howling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry weeks Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I use an EOTech for tac iron and think it's the way to go. The 1 minute dot doesn't obscure the long range targets and you can make it plenty bright to stand out in the brightest sunlight. As others have said, take two or three at the long ones, move on and learn to reload your shotgun. My biggest problem is figuring out a loading plan for the long shotgun stages, and then remembering it after the timer beeps. Biggest thing is don't get tempted to take that extra shot at a farther target that you originally planned to shoot from another location. If you miss you have to make it up and load more. Shotgun kills you in 3-Gun, and can help you if you do it right. Guess I better do some loading practice tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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