Additions to WSB for safety issues

[Nik Habicht]

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

Really the only thing that's different is the timing......

Now John, if you'd prefer to receive a warning on the clock, rather than during the WSB, that could probably be arranged as well -- but would be more fraught with potential error.... :devil:

[Nik Habicht]

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

:popcorn: --- this is the part that I wanted to get to... So... read WSB. End briefing - any questions? 5 minutes then. WARNING: watch your muzzle in on such and such targets or don't sweep yourself playing with the ports.

Don't know. The problem is - Should we really be warning people about reaching for a door handle at a level 2 or higher match? - the situation OP is talking about is the equivalent. It wasn't that extreme.

If we need to warn people about doors and ports, then we need to warn them about anytime they are reaching for something.

There is no different rule here for match level.

I'm pretty sure anybody here talking about this has the common sense to figure out when something is f*#ked up enough to need a safety warning.

...as well as when things are normal -- and don't need to be pointed out to anyone other than new competitors....

[aztecdriver]

There is no different rule here for match level.

I'm pretty sure anybody here talking about this has the common sense to figure out when something is f*#ked up enough to need a safety warning.

Flex, I'm not trying to frustrate you - nor am I trying to discount the need to maintain safe course of fire. I'm trying to convey some conflict I'm having over the concepts here, and I appreciate you trying to clear them up...

There is a rule for match level.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request.

My concern is at what point do we discern the difference between expected safety skills and something extraordinary - and therefore, when does a warning become coaching. Let me illustrate:

An example of this as CRO of a stage that was a basic horizontal layout with two walls, and three shooting positions, one in the center, one on each end. One of my junior ROs knew that a competitor that was on a squad during the walkthrough was a newer shooter and suggested that I pull him aside and warn him about the 180 going from right to left (shooting production, he had a reload there). Do you warn him there or do you wait until hes about to break it and bark "MUZZLE" during the COF?

If I warn this competitor - am I coaching him on how to run the COF? Or am I being extra cautious with someone likely to cause a safety infraction. If I'm supposed to brief every competitor equally, should I then have warned every squad during the walk through about this?

You mentioned common sense - and I agree. Though, I looked at this COF the OP brought up and having shot the thing - and actually performed the offending procedure they warned about - but yet did it safely, without the warning. I didn't think it was any different then the issues of reaching for a mag on a barrel or reaching for a door handle. I'm not saying the OP or CRO were incorrect about it because I wasn't running the stage - it could very well have proven different and I'm sure the first time someone passed a muzzle over their elbow it gave them a Most likely I would have done the same thing after seeing that. As I said my initial inclination about the stage was it was much the same as the stuff we generally do (doors, ports)... especially considering I had shot a stage JUST like it about a month before 750 miles away, so I might not have thought it warranted a safety warning - but if I should be considering them when we have things like ports and doors, stashed props to grab - maybe I'll start automatically baking them into my WSBs (with my RMs permission of course). This is what I'm trying to discern.

One thing I've noticed is that while the RO staff and generally we here on the forum have a great deal of common sense when it comes to these things... some of our fellow competitors do not. They like to push the buttons of range crews just to see how much they can twist us... and having experienced it at several matches including Nationals - I like to be absolutely prepared to handle all of that in due course. Which is why I joined Gary in his Devils Advocate mode. I'm not saying your wrong-- I'm saying I want some more ammo so that I can be right when it happens to me.

[Singlestack]

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

So where does it end?

[ima45dv8]

For the record, I was the RM who approved the stage in question. I spent two days going over the stages, deliberately looking for mechanical issues (shoot-throughs, etc.) and safety issues. I made many suggestions and requests for changes, and every one was met with enthusiasm by the MD/primary stage designer. I certainly saw the potential for someone to game that stage by using their weak-hand to activate both ports. I didn't (and still don't) think it warranted a separate warning to the competitors not to sweep themselves. Everyone had ample time to examine the stage and activate the ports during the walk-through. If after that exposure someone didn't recognize that their chosen technique was going to result in a sweep, well...maybe they did need to go home.

I'm concerned that some who weren't there may have a mental image of something much more dangerous than presented. Could it have been done in an unsafe manner? Absolutely. But that holds true for every stage we shoot. After all, we run with loaded guns, right?

So, forgetting for a moment the specific example given by the OP, should we be giving additional safety warnings during the reading of the WSB? It's hard for me to give a blanket answer. I'd have to see the stage that raised the concern. If it's that dangerous, then changing it beforehand would be the right course of action.

I'm not enthusiastic about RO crews adding such cautions to their presentations, but I wouldn't automatically deny it, either. I have to trust their good judgement in that moment, and allow them the self-comfort of knowing they were doing what they thought was the right thing.

I think someone already said, "Safety trumps all."

[gng4life]

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions.

So where does it end?

Singlestack and Ima45dv8, you hit it on the head. We can't put the entire rulebook into the WSB, ...then why have a rulebook? No one would ever have to read the rulebook because it will be printed on every WSB. As a CRO, I also feel safety does trump all but you have to know when it is a legitimate concern and when it's going overboard. I would not add in to the WSB about sweeping your body in this particular situation.

But honestly, I don't expect everyone to know every rule in the book but I expect them to handle their firearm in a safe manner. Yes, accidents happen and safety violations do occur. We just can't put every safety rule on the WSB but there will be times when it could be warranted...at that point, it's bad stage design.

[ErichF]

I think some of you old vets in this game may be forgetting that the Level I match is where new shooters in this sport learn. While it's a competitive venue, it also needs to remain a teaching venue, too. Hence the rule 8.6.2.1.

[ima45dv8]

I think some of you old vets in this game may be forgetting that the Level I match is where new shooters in this sport learn. While it's a competitive venue, it also needs to remain a teaching venue, too. Hence the rule 8.6.2.1.

So bystanders know what you're referring to...

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request.

Yeah, I'm a not-so-old vet. And no, I haven't forgotten about Level I events. They account for the bulk of my activity.

The example being discussed was a Level II event. The rule you cited says we can provide coaching, if requested, at a Level I. I fully support that and have been known to provide "insight" even when not requested (within certain limitations). That's entirely different from a Level II match where, in my opinion, you should have at least a rudimentary grasp of safe gun handling (if not the rules).

[deacon12224]

I'm concerned that some who weren't there may have a mental image of something much more dangerous than presented. Could it have been done in an unsafe manner? Absolutely. But that holds true for every stage we shoot. After all, we run with loaded guns, right?

Mark:

I certainly did not mean to suggest that there was anything wrong with the stage that I used as an example. There certainly was no issue with the stage, the issue was with the shooters not paying attention to the rules. I certainly am living proof that shooters can screw up on even the safest stages. I was simply using that stage as an example to illustrate my question. I now understand that the proper thing to do would have been to ask you as the RM if you thought a change needed to be made to the WSB. If not, bring on the next shooter.

Chris

[ima45dv8]

Mark:

I certainly did not mean to suggest that there was anything wrong with the stage that I used as an example. There certainly was no issue with the stage, the issue was with the shooters not paying attention to the rules. I certainly am living proof that shooters can screw up on even the safest stages. I was simply using that stage as an example to illustrate my question. I now understand that the proper thing to do would have been to ask you as the RM if you thought a change needed to be made to the WSB. If not, bring on the next shooter.

Chris

Don't start getting all apologetic on me! It's a good question. And I'm not certain of the answer just because "everything's a situation" (an old, obscure Hill Street Blues quote).

What I do know is what I said above...I expect and trust you guys will show good judgment in the interactions you have with competitors and will call the RM when you have a question or doubt.

===============

Back to something quoted earlier:

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time.

The part that was bolded in the first cite is noteworthy, but might not apply to this discussion since it also says, " ...during the course of fire..." That starts at Make Ready and we're talking about something waaay before that.

My mind's still open on this and I wish I knew a hard, fast rule to fall on. Until I do I'll just stick to the idea that each situation needs to be judged individually, with Safety being the Wild Card that takes the pot every time.

[old506]

Sometimes we mix "safety" with "rules". I think that it is important to separate the two. There are many "safe" actions that will get you DQed, not because they are unsafe but because they are the rules of our sport.

[old506]

If an RO is adding his/her own ideas to the WSB it should only be to remind us of the rules of our game (not safety) and should, in my opinion, be limited so as not to coach and to encourage freestyle. If it however is a (true) safety issue, it probably shouldn't be apart of the stage anyway.

[Flexmoney]

coaching and safety warnings are not the same. the coaching rule is out of place in this

Thread

[JThompson]

We have rules in place to deal with safety and or stage issues before a COF.

During is where the "at any time" comes in to play.

3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out

written stage briefing verbatim to each squad.

3.2.3 The Range Master may modify a written stage briefing at any time for

reasons of clarity, consistency or safety (see Section 2.3).

I am all about safety, but when there is a rule on how to deal with something, that's what we do. Now if there wasn't a rule there, and I found something inherently dangerous, I too would speak up about it. In this case I would call the RM and have the WSB changed or correct the issue with FA if it was a safety issue.

Best,

JT

Edited January 28, 2012 by JThompson

[ima45dv8]

coaching and safety warnings are not the same. the coaching rule is out of place in this thread

I agree.

I think people are equating safety advisories before the CoF with coaching, using the logic that the shooters who get those advisories are somehow at an advantage.

Why shouldn't they instead feel indignant that someone thought they were so inept that they needed that additional warning at a Level II event?

This would be my reaction ---

[JKSNIPER]

You could have the veteran pro shooter who can breeze through the COF without a concern and makes it look easy...then the next guy could be someone like the rest of us who's REALLY trying hard to do his best and he might have a brain fart without the cautionary "Hey on position umptyfratz you might want to be aware of your muzzle while opening that port as its probably pretty easy to sweep your self if you're not careful enough."

The Ro isn't "coaching" him by giving that safety warning before he starts his COF.

I'd rather lose a match and see that guy beat me than have to put a compress on his arm/hand while he screams in agony.

Not too many people here have seen a guy shoot himself at a match but I have.

The guy, to his credit, gave a little hop and CONTINUED through the course while us spectators said to each other "Did that guy just do what I think he did?" and finally a buddy who's an S.F. veteran said "Is someone going to stop him before he bleeds to death on the range?"

The guy HAD shot himself with a squeeze cocker H&K pistol and now that he was stopped and the adrenaline was wearing off man was he hurting.

The splashes of blood all over the range made for a gruesome sight as well as all of us being kept there while the local PD came to do an investigation and delayed the match while taking crime scene pics etc...

So to avoid doing that fun stuff again YES I'd rather see an opponent get a warning from the RO that will gain him an unfair advantage rather than see him bleed all over the COF.

[ima45dv8]

You could have the veteran pro shooter who can breeze through the COF without a concern and makes it look easy...then the next guy could be someone like the rest of us who's REALLY trying hard to do his best and he might have a brain fart without the cautionary "Hey on position umptyfratz you might want to be aware of your muzzle while opening that port as its probably pretty easy to sweep your self if you're not careful enough."

The Ro isn't "coaching" him by giving that safety warning before he starts his COF.

I'd rather lose a match and see that guy beat me than have to put a compress on his arm/hand while he screams in agony.

Not too many people here have seen a guy shoot himself at a match but I have.

The guy, to his credit, gave a little hop and CONTINUED through the course while us spectators said to each other "Did that guy just do what I think he did?" and finally a buddy who's an S.F. veteran said "Is someone going to stop him before he bleeds to death on the range?"

The guy HAD shot himself with a squeeze cocker H&K pistol and now that he was stopped and the adrenaline was wearing off man was he hurting.

The splashes of blood all over the range made for a gruesome sight as well as all of us being kept there while the local PD came to do an investigation and delayed the match while taking crime scene pics etc...

So to avoid doing that fun stuff again YES I'd rather see an opponent get a warning from the RO that will gain him an unfair advantage rather than see him bleed all over the COF.

From what I've read from you over the last couple of years, you and your brethren hi-speed, low-drag uber ESU/SWAT guys have spilled more of your own blood in training and at matches than any one of the USPSA competitors I'm aware of (and I do get around).

Just maybe, instead of telling us how it should be done...y'all should be 'asking'.

just saying...

[JKSNIPER]

Not hating here...not accusing either....not "telling" anyone anything....just looking to make it safer...thats all.

If you go to the NTOA's web page and look for the "Training Deaths" page you can peruse the many incidents involving the men that risk their lives daily and yes they're all cops and yes you'll be shaking your head wondering "how the fudge could he have done something like that?"

And yes the guy who did that to himself WAS a SWAT guy. He borrowed a handgun from a fellow competitor that he was unfamiliar with (H&K P-7) for the handgun portion of a COF in a sniper competition.

The guy's agency wouldn't let them take their handguns outside their jurisdiction for the competition so he had to get one from a fellow competitor for that particular COF.

WHats the chances that if you go to borrow a handgun from someone you're going to get a H&K P-7 ? but he "won" the spin of the wheel of fate I guess.

I forget if he was reholstering the handgun or if he was pulling it out of the holster when it happened but the squeeze cocking mechanism was unfamiliar to this fellow and he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

Anyone can make a mistake.

I don't claim perfection and I'm VERY aware of the lack thereof in my former profession.

The persons profession doesn't matter when he's bleeding all over the range.

[ima45dv8]

Not hating here...not accusing either....not "telling" anyone anything....just looking to make it safer...thats all.

If you go to the NTOA's web page and look for the "Training Deaths" page you can peruse the many incidents involving the men that risk their lives daily and yes they're all cops and yes you'll be shaking your head wondering "how the fudge could he have done something like that?"

And yes the guy who did that to himself WAS a SWAT guy. He borrowed a handgun from a fellow competitor that he was unfamiliar with (H&K P-7) for the handgun portion of a COF in a sniper competition.

The guy's agency wouldn't let them take their handguns outside their jurisdiction for the competition so he had to get one from a fellow competitor for that particular COF.

WHats the chances that if you go to borrow a handgun from someone you're going to get a H&K P-7 ? but he "won" the spin of the wheel of fate I guess.

I forget if he was reholstering the handgun or if he was pulling it out of the holster when it happened but the squeeze cocking mechanism was unfamiliar to this fellow and he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

Anyone can make a mistake.

I don't claim perfection and I'm VERY aware of the lack thereof in my former profession.

The persons profession doesn't matter when he's bleeding all over the range.

Thanks for your candor, and for making my point (and please accept my condolences for the men you've mentioned -- I appreciate their work and dedication).

But all these horror stories about what happened to XYZ cop during ABC training or on-line exercises have little or nothing to do with our activity. Our safety standards, for what we do, are established as top-o-the-heap. What may have happened during an entrance drill, or barricade breach exercise have virtually no bearing on our sport. I'm not saying we couldn't have an adverse incident, but until we do, let's not equate every situation to what might have happened to an officer in the line of duty.

Our environment is controlled and that sets it apart from those folks putting their asses on the line every day. We ain't them, and they ain't us.

Please understand I mean no disrespect to those doing the job...it just isn't what we do.

[whitedog]

Question.....an Ro can issue safety warnings at any time according to above rule cited. Is not any time....well any time? Before, during, or after cof? Don't understand. Am I reading any time wrong?

[JKSNIPER]

I understand ima45dv8 that USPSA is extremely safe especially when you consider the # of accidents vs the # of rounds fired and matches held. Probably safer than golf....more exciting anyway.

Not arguing that at all.

I'm in the camp that if you can reasonably perceive something happening in a cof then theres a chance that one person will attempt to do it the way they shouldn't.

I know you can probably use that cof a thousand times without incident but then theres # 1001 and something happens.

I know we can't stop every accident from happening....the only way to do that would be to stay home...but my point is that if the RO sees a reasonable potential for something to happen he SHOULD tell the MD and they can discuss it and decide whats appropriate and whats not.

I'd rather have my squad held up and waiting while they work to make the match safer for everyone.

Top competitors would probably resent a warning about sweeping or a 180 hazard but the guy trying to climb up there would most likely thank you afterward.

Just trying to avoid the injury and associated crap that goes with it.

JK

[spanky]

If it is a safety concern...something we DQ for...then it is a safety concern. It needs to be mentioned, one way or another.

Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, why?

We provide rulebookls to members one way or the other, online or hardcopy, why do we need to repeat what is already in the rulebook?

Now for a Level 1 match, yeah put me in coach as you will always have new folks who do not know the rules.

At Level 2 and above, why do we need to tell folks to not break the 180, or sweep their hand, or shoot a round over the berm, or any of the other multitude of things that can get you DQ'd?

Putting helmet on at this time.

I couldn't agree more.

[JThompson]

Question.....an Ro can issue safety warnings at any time according to above rule cited. Is not any time....well any time? Before, during, or after cof? Don't understand. Am I reading any time wrong?

For consistency, we have rules in place that allow problem areas to be rectified or addressed by use of the rules I quoted. Every shooter should hear the same thing from the RO, so you put it in the WSB. Can an RO issue a warning before the COF and after the WSB has been read? Yes, but it's not the best most consistent way to deal with it and could result in a stage being thrown out or arbed. We don't want either of those to happen, so that's why it says to read the WSB verbatim and not to ad lib anything.

Say I remind all shooters to watch the 180 on T4 and I step away to take a leak and the other RO does not issue that warning and the guy break the 180. His buddy asks him if the RO told him about it (which there is no obligation) but the guy didn't get the warning and his buddy did. Well, he just spent a grand to come to this match and he now thinks he was screwed because others got direction he did not get from the ROs. He says he should be able to shoot on an AS WHEN VISIBLE basis and next thing you know the MD is looking for people for an arb committee. Will he win? Most likely not, but we have seen examples of it and have had stages thrown out when the WSB was not clear and the RO tried to wing it on the fly. The key is consistency.... and the most, best, way to do that is to have it written down and read it back off the sheet.

JT

Edited January 29, 2012 by JThompson

[DarthMuffin]

There's no rule prohibiting an RO from saying whatever he wants *after* the written stage briefing, as long as he's not adding rules or conditions to the stage.

Myself, I'll make it clear that the WSB is finished before I add anything I may have to say. That may be things like:

"If you shoot T4 from here you WILL be breaking the 180."

"The wind has a tendency to blow the door back shut, so watch your muzzle."

"Please paint the steel between every shooter."

"When you're setting that activator be sure it's placed just so..."

"Safety area is over there. Water jug is over here."

"Remember to face downrange while doing your LAMR!" (had an RO at 2007 Nationals do that because he had DQ'd two people on a facing-uprange-start stage, and all he can do is watch them DQ themselves during the start because "face downrange" is not a range command).

[Steven Cline]

We make these announcements at the Shooters meeting, not at the stage, along with a general reminder of the safety rules (what get's you DQ'd). Shooters discuss this at each stage amoungst themselves or a senior shooter may point this out to newer shooters.