LPR-07 vs 700 custom

[1911vm]

Please school me. One of these will be my purchase of the year in 2012. I cannot afford both. How much more accurate is a bolt gun verses gas. I have spoken to several SWAT team snipers that say that a 3/4inch gun is more then good, but LPR should do that so why bolt?

[Doug H.]

Please school me. One of these will be my purchase of the year in 2012. I cannot afford both. How much more accurate is a bolt gun verses gas. I have spoken to several SWAT team snipers that say that a 3/4inch gun is more then good, but LPR should do that so why bolt?

I guess it depends on what you want to do with the gun. If you want to shoot the long range, 550 to 900 yard, portion of Ironman a gas gun will cycle faster and give you a better time. In general I think the consensus is that the LPR-07 is as accurate as a good bolt gun but the bolt gun may have a bit longer legs due to not bleeding off gas for the action and generally longer barrel configuations. I bought a 700 5R, which I really like but I wish I had put the money in a LPR-07.

Doug

[00bullitt]

The gas gun is really only good for a consistent 1/2-3/4 moa at best. A good bolt gun is capable down to 1/4 moa but most of the time a bolt gun is limited by the ability of the shooter.

I was shooting my OBR and bolt gun today. I consistently shot 2" - 5 shot groups at 300 yards and 3" groups at 400. I was shooting 1" groups at 400 yards with my bolt gun.

There are some variable involved that affect accuracy potential in a gas gun that are not present in a bolt gun.

[bgary]

There are some variable involved that affect accuracy potential in a gas gun that are not present in a bolt gun.

...such as magazine length. It is tough to load "out to the lands" and still have the ammo fit and feed in the magazine. You can always single-load the gas-gun, but... if you're going to do that, might as well be a bolt gun.

[bigbrowndog]

I have both, a 260 in the LRP, and 300 win mag in the 700. as far inherent accuracy the bolt gun wins, BUT!!!.....the LRP is more than accurate enough for LR matches and such. As Todd said, the difference between the 2 is probably 1/4moa, WOW!!!.... the LRP has the added benefit of being able to deliver an almost instantaneous second round if the first misses and you do not have remove your face from the stock, or work the action, or try to return to the target after the gun goes off. Also my LRP has had 30-40 rounds fired thru it in very short order and it doesn't shift POI.

the only reason I would go bolt gun over gas gun would be if a suitable caliber or the one I wanted wasn't available in the gas gun.

Trapr

[whistlepig]

Reading your original post, I vote gas gun for now. You will have a very versatile set up and and will enjoy it. The accurized bolt gun should/could be a future goal. You will learn much about the potential issues between them by really getting to know your gas gun and its performance. And this is coming from a guy who has one gas gun set up very basic and (censored) (makes me a bit quesy) dollars tied up in several nice bolt guns........ The gas gun can't beat any of the bolt guns in accuracy. But it can hang right with them with all of the attributes already posted.

[MarkCO]

You have some good answers that spell out some of the prominent differences. Here are a few more to consider: The gas guns are harder on brass and really ask for full length sizing which means your brass will not last as long in a gas gun vs. a bolt. If you like to switch loads, a gas gun will be less adaptable to those differences in terms of accuracy and adjustable gas set-ups. On a gas gun, changing out the barrel is simpler and requires fewer expensive tools. You can shoot cheaper RED loads in a bolt gun but not in a gas gun.

What caliber and purpose would probably the deciding factor. I've had both AR-10 based and Rem 700 based rifles in .308, .260 and .243 and I am on my way to only the bolt gun in .260.

[smokshwn]

Many modern semi auto's are every bit as capable of bolt gun accuracy from a mechanical standpoint given the same barrel length, ammunition, quality of construction/components etc.

However it is much more difficult to drive the gun properly than a bolt action. There are three distinct recoil impulses to an auto where a bolt gun has only one. This in and of itself can easily create the accuracy difference most experience.

[1911vm]

Thank-you you all for the responses. I think that 2012 is going to be a bolt gun. That brings me to the next question. I have a brand new never fired SPS tactical and a A5 McMillan stock . What do I need to-do to build a 1/2 - 3/8 gun. I have looked at several builders on line and they all look good. Keep in mind that I am not big on the looks the the matter of fact I kind of like ugly guns LOL. something about a fiat that runs like a ferrari . I would rather spend money on a good scope then on gun Bling-bling. thank you again

[JKSNIPER]

Do you have a lot of bolt gun experience?

The reason I ask is the A-5 stock....I know guys who have gone around the stock world and they always seem to wind up in the same place....with a Mac A-1.

If you're totally static in position the A-5 may be for you...if running and gunning then the A-1 is the way to go.

Good rifle builders....Charles Milazzo in Wisconsin (Milazzo Gunworks) . Charlie has been doing this for 30+ years now....builds rifles for the sniper community and goes tot he range with his local team and LISTENS to their concerns and problems.

Al Warner in Keene N.H. (Warner Precision) is a great builder...the thing about Al is he HATES talking to people. If you contract him he'll say something like "Ok I'll call you when it's done." and thats IT.

DO NOT call him every week to find out when it will be done or you'll get a phone call like this "Hey A-hole...you're F****ing rifles done....come here to pick it up...it'll be on my front lawn and you'd better get here soon because I think it's going to rain." and when my friend arrived?

THe rifle was sitting on Al's front lawn.

George Gardner in Missouri (GA Precision) is another great builder and George is a good guy besides.

You have the right attitude...buy a good scope and cry once. Schmidt and Bender or Nightforce are preferred.....you can get away with a Leupold but thats it.

If you take a 3 grand rifle and put a 500 dollar scope on it? You now have a 5 hundred dollar rifle.

ALso realize that a friend of mine who has run a LOT of students through FBI basic sniper said this about all these claims of "my rifles a 1/4 moa gun"....hes seen a LOT of rifles come through and the absolute best any rifle could consistently hold was around .5 to 1 moa.

Could it shoot one smoking hole every now and then? Sure could.

The true test of the rifle is not how it performs when its wedged into a super bag that weighs more then you do while lying on a granite bench welded to bedrock and held in place by one ton blocks of concrete....the true test is you doing everything with it you intend to do and seeing how well YOU and it shoot together in an entire day...NOT what it did ONCE.

Sure everyone goes out to the hundred yard range....puts up the zero target and fires 3 or maybe 5 shots...takes it down and then passes it around saying "Look at that group. Best e-fffing rifle in the western world.....I can shoot pea sized groups out of it ALL DAY LONG."

Bullshit. Shoot a BOX .....20 rounds of ammo and see what happens....then shoot another and another...will it shoot a couple smoking hole groups?

Yes it will...every once in a while it will do so....which the shooter will then explain the "deviation" by saying something like:

"Well when I do my part its a ____moa rifle..." O - K

I have over 20 years operational L.E. sniper experience have won competition and lost competition and have had the privilege of shooting with the top LE and mil snipers in this country and a few from other countries and I tell you I haven't seen anything to contradict my FBI buddy's observations.

SOme of his accuracy observations from another forum (redacted) posted awhile ago. He has access to a testing facility the rest of us dream about and has tested barrels from every maker in that vise he refers to:

Here I go again on accuracy but it needs to be said so we won’t have people trying to “fix” rifles that are not broken.

XXXXX- 100% agreement. Don’t fix it if it’s not broke. No Shit. I’m dealing with a FN with the same issues, it was bedded and a trigger job was done on it. It’s not from my agency either. Once in its life it shot really small groups, now it guarantees 1” groups and the Sniper is not happy.

I don’t want to know what a rifle can do once, I want to know what it is expected to do. I believe .75” average is excellent! If I have a rifle that averages .75”, I don’t do anything to try to “improve” it.

XXXXX - 100% agreement.

My main problem with all this is being ignorant. I was ignorant until I started shooting the test barrels in the vise. I was AMAZED that they didn’t always shoot everything under .25”. Something had to be wrong. I played with clamping them in different spots and it didn’t get better. I then got the bright idea of clamping at the muzzle. Knowing that the machine has less than .001” movement, that means the muzzle was in exactly the same spot EVERY TIME. Groups still were around .5” with some ammo. At that point I lost my accuracy ignorance.

Rifles just are not that good.

XXXXX- “At that point I lost my accuracy ignorance.” I once kept every test target I shot. I had at least 1000 targets in several folders. I had one rifle that had 3 .25” groups in 100 different groups. I had 4 or 5 at 1” and 4 or 5 over 1”. The rest were .5-.75” and the other rifles were consistent with this.

At that point, I asked myself what’s the point in keeping all these test targets, and like (FBI guy), my accuracy ignorance was over. I threw those targets out in one of my divorces and movements.

I figured out, under stress, if I could hold1” I was fine, that’s my standard for my performance, AND not hitting the hostage targets.

I can shoot you a .25” group with most any rifle…if I shoot enough groups.

XXXXX - 100% agreement, and the comments above reflect this.

I’ve harped on this enough. I’ll ask that someone other than me go out to the range and shoot five groups with their rifle(s) and email the list with the measurements of all the groups.

XXXXX - See above.

Our community really needs an education about what we can expect from our equipment.

[1911vm]

I have 0 experience. Stock works for me for now. I truly appreciate the info and I will definitely keep it as I move forward. I just do not know where I am moving to LOL.

[JKSNIPER]

A-5 has adjustable length of pull and cheek piece...the adjustment knobs tend to loosen and then associated parts move when you least want them to move.

Benchrest shooting or shooting from fixed prone position under zero stress?

It's probably not an issue as you can make a habit of checking the tightness every X # of rounds fired...for a guy depending on the rifle to make a hostage rescue shot?

Not such a good idea.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step......"

[Biloxi23]

A-5 has adjustable length of pull and cheek piece...the adjustment knobs tend to loosen and then associated parts move when you least want them to move.

Benchrest shooting or shooting from fixed prone position under zero stress?

It's probably not an issue as you can make a habit of checking the tightness every X # of rounds fired...for a guy depending on the rifle to make a hostage rescue shot?

Not such a good idea.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step......"

I have a Kimber with an A5 without the adjustable cheek piece. It is great off teh bench, and OK in the prone but I have had some issues with it in improvised shooting positions. I am geetting a little long in the tooth and no longer do the "sniper" thing, but I still like to shoot with the younger guys.

I loved your post about rifle accuracy. It is so on the button. As my uncle used to say, "Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

[benny hill]

Just built 2 6.5 creedmore on dpms 308 platform with criterion match barrels 22". Both shot .5-.6 with hornady 120gr a-max. Know they will do better with 140gr handloads.It is enough to win most matches.

[1911vm]

Just built 2 6.5 creedmore on dpms 308 platform with criterion match barrels 22". Both shot .5-.6 with hornady 120gr a-max. Know they will do better with 140gr handloads.It is enough to win most matches.

Hello sir do you build bolt guns? I know that the rest of your work is impeccable.

[JKSNIPER]

Biloxi23 I wish I could take credit for those observations but they come (mostly) from a very good friend of mine who works for "The FEEB" ....he was VERY heavily involved in researching ammo in addition to accuracy of rifles among other things.

Best thing about my career was I got to meet and hang out with a very interesting bunch of people a lot of whom I still keep in touch with.

I can relate to the getting older thing....beats the alternative.

[benny hill]

Yes I build bolt guns.

[1911vm]

Yes I build bolt guns.

Now this is interesting a Benny Bolt . That even sounds cool. LOL. I have never seen example of a B B. Do you have any pictures that you can post. Thanks.

PS if you want to use that name I am giving you my official blessing.

[benny hill]

Have built several, even one for merlin orr. They all shoot well, .25 to about .65 depending on who shoots them and ammo.

[Ben-Sons]

The thing that keeps me behind a bolt gun instead of a gas gun is reliability.

In the field and in comps I've seen a few gas guns go down. But never a bolt gun outside from the "normal" issues that come with our sport/profession.