Why a 22 rimfire division is needed in USPSA

[BillD]

Question.

After the old guys die off who is going to be shooting USPSA Matches?

Question.

I don't care. I'll be dead.

How do you create a feeder program into USPSA?

Steel Challenge

Question.

How do you make a USPSA Match a family event? Remember if only one member of the family participates it's not a family event.

I don't want to make it a family event

Question.

How do you address the age and gender disparities that exist at USPSA Matches?

They aren't old, fat white guys who love their guns and have since they were little boys. If women don't want to show up and shoot, I don't care.

All of the above can be answered with the addition of a 22 rimfire division within USPSA. The future of the sport is wholly dependent upon getting more people involved at a younger age and this is the format that can produce results. I know some of you are dead set against it but stop and consider the future of the sport for a moment. Without new people coming in it will just die out. A 22 Rimfire Division is the easiet way to funnel shootes into the regular USPSA matches. A 22 Rimfire Division would be family friendly thereby allowing family members young and old to compete together. Getting the whole family involved not only guarantees a future for the sport but strengthens its political clout making it far less likely that the anti-gunners will ever succeed in their efforts.

Example. At my last match I was only one of 2 females who shot the match. Normally I'm the only female shooting and I'm 60 years old which makes me young middle age of those who shoot our match. There is no future for the sport with that type of age and gender representation. Last year I did an out of town rifle match where I was the only female shooting. If any of the shooting sports wish to maintain and grow they better figure out how to get more people involved and a 22 Rimfire Division in USPSA is a great step in making sure USPSA exists in the future.

We have few women also. I don't care if women don't want to shoot the match and I sure ain't going out of my way to interest them. Why should I? We have just about max capacity matches around here anyway. I don't care to have have women and kids running around when we are having a match.

If kids want to shoot, let em start in Steel Challenge. I know you've heard this before but you are adamant that you are right and all of us are wrong. If women want to shoot, let em buy they guns and gear and show up like everyone else.

Why should gender and age matter? We aren't trying to be politically correct are we?

You still haven't addressed knocking down steel in a USPSA match with .22's or the lack of .22 holsters.

Maybe it's all because men have more disposable income than women (generally) and kids?

We could say the same thing about golf. Most golf courses are dominated by old white guys.

Edited January 19, 2012 by BillD

[JakeMartens]

Question.

After the old guys die off who is going to be shooting USPSA Matches?

Question.

How do you create a feeder program into USPSA?

Question.

How do you make a USPSA Match a family event? Remember if only one member of the family participates it's not a family event.

Question.

How do you address the age and gender disparities that exist at USPSA Matches?

All of the above can be answered with the addition of a 22 rimfire division within USPSA. The future of the sport is wholly dependent upon getting more people involved at a younger age and this is the format that can produce results. I know some of you are dead set against it but stop and consider the future of the sport for a moment. Without new people coming in it will just die out. A 22 Rimfire Division is the easiet way to funnel shootes into the regular USPSA matches. A 22 Rimfire Division would be family friendly thereby allowing family members young and old to compete together. Getting the whole family involved not only guarantees a future for the sport but strengthens its political clout making it far less likely that the anti-gunners will ever succeed in their efforts.

Example. At my last match I was only one of 2 females who shot the match. Normally I'm the only female shooting and I'm 60 years old which makes me young middle age of those who shoot our match. There is no future for the sport with that type of age and gender representation. Last year I did an out of town rifle match where I was the only female shooting. If any of the shooting sports wish to maintain and grow they better figure out how to get more people involved and a 22 Rimfire Division in USPSA is a great step in making sure USPSA exists in the future.

1.1.7 Challenge – USPSA Handgun matches recognize the difficulty of using

full power handguns in dynamic shooting, and must always employ a

minimum caliber and power level to be attained by all competitors to

reflect this challenge.

This is how the game is played, anyone is welcome to come and try it out

1. Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to

occupation. It may specifically not be limited to public servants.

2. Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting

and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate

these elements equally.

3. Firearm types are not separated within their respective divisions, all compete

together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms

as power is an element to be recognized and rewarded.

.22 does not belong in USPSA, period.

[Jim Norman]

If we want (and I am NOT saying we do) a .22 rimfire division, it should be as we have done at my home range. We have a match that is run with .22s. 4 divisions. HG and Carbine, Irons or Optics, all limited to 10 rounds since that seems to be the capacity of a great number of .22s. No holsters and no mag pouches. Otherwise all rules apply. The guys running the match have designed and built a number of .22 friendly steel targets. They are balanced for .22 and would not ever stand the rigors of a CF major PF match, but for .22 they will likely last a lifetime.

Very family friendly. Low cost, they even reuse the targets as the holes are smaller and don't tear up the cardboard so much.

As for interspersing a .22 Div into a regular USPSA match, NO, NO WAY, NOT ON MY WATCH. There are just way too many problems. Use a .22 match or Steel Challenge or other game as a feeder, but it cannot and never should be USPSA.

Jim

[Reshoot]

I could not have said it better myself. NO is the correct answer

One of the two ranges where I shoot USPSA, has a .22 rifle / pistol side match AFTER the monthly match. I fully endorse this practice, and shoot it myself.

[Thomas H]

Question.

After the old guys die off who is going to be shooting USPSA Matches?

Everyone else who shoots, which is literally thousands of people.

Question.

How do you create a feeder program into USPSA?

You mean things like local fun matches, Steel Challenge, and the many other matches that exist? Already handled.

Question.

How do you make a USPSA Match a family event? Remember if only one member of the family participates it's not a family event.

1) We don't need to make it a family event. Plenty of sports aren't, and oddly enough, they do just fine. It does not have to be a family event.

2) Plenty of families already shoot USPSA.

Question.

How do you address the age and gender disparities that exist at USPSA Matches?

Let's see---most young people can't own firearms, and many parents don't shoot. We can't fix that. There will always be less juniors.

Gender---just as many men don't go into cheerleading (even though males are welcomed and necessary), many women aren't interested in shooting. Everyone can shoot, and everyone is welcome. However, there isn't anything to "address" in terms of problems or issues.

Now, is it true that USPSA should show what it has to offer to more women? Certainly. Which it is already doing.

All of the above can be answered with the addition of a 22 rimfire division within USPSA.

And that is flat out wrong. As people have repeatedly shown, the reason it would be wrong is that it wouldn't be USPSA.

Now, local fun matches using .22s, with steel and targets set for .22s? Sure. Absolutely. Lots of local clubs do precisely that.

However, the addition of a .22 division would contravene one of the major founding principles of USPSA. As such-----no.

Very simple.

The future of the sport is wholly dependent upon getting more people involved at a younger age and this is the format that can produce results.

Not true. And obviously so. (Hint: if their parents don't shoot, and the kids can't own, it isn't going to happen easily.)

"Wholly dependent" is just plain wrong.

I know some of you are dead set against it but stop and consider the future of the sport for a moment. Without new people coming in it will just die out. A 22 Rimfire Division is the easiet way to funnel shootes into the regular USPSA matches. A 22 Rimfire Division would be family friendly thereby allowing family members young and old to compete together. Getting the whole family involved not only guarantees a future for the sport but strengthens its political clout making it far less likely that the anti-gunners will ever succeed in their efforts.

As a question, do kendo tournaments have a foam sword division? To get more families interested? TOo get more kids? No? Why not?

Because it goes against the spirit, letter, and concept of the sport.

Do plenty of kendo schools have kids play around with foam swords? Certainly, because it gets them interested and they have fun.

Can local clubs hold .22 rimfire matches for fun without having them be an official division within USPSA? Sure! And many do.

Would having a .22 division in USPSA mean that most steel would be either unusable, or have to be reset often? Yes. Would that be stupid? Yes.

There are reasons both technical and abstract that solidly show why having a .22 division in USPSA would be wrong.

These reasons are quite clear.

Example. At my last match I was only one of 2 females who shot the match. Normally I'm the only female shooting and I'm 60 years old which makes me young middle age of those who shoot our match. There is no future for the sport with that type of age and gender representation. Last year I did an out of town rifle match where I was the only female shooting. If any of the shooting sports wish to maintain and grow they better figure out how to get more people involved and a 22 Rimfire Division in USPSA is a great step in making sure USPSA exists in the future.

Rifle matches and USPSA are different things. Your experience there means nothing.

Local clubs are wildly different in composition depending on your area--again, your experience there means nothing. (Other than you need more people who like to shoot.)

In my local club, for example, we have a number of females and juniors, and most of our shooters are from 25-50 years of age. Our match director is female, as is our treasurer.

In other words---you don't have enough experience to really understand the overall composition of USPSA membership. (Go watch an Area match. Or even a Sectional match.)

And apparently, you should read the rulebook regarding what this sport is about, as it states quite clearly (which several people have posted but apparently has not been read) why a .22 division is contra-indicated.

[alpha-charlie]

It's like beating a dead horse but I'll give the only example I can think of. Not everyone is for this sport....right away. Not everyone is ready to perform multiple magazine changes while remaining safe. Not everyone is ready to go running around shooting at multiple targets at multiple angles and multiple positions. Everyone has to crawl before they walk. Steel matches are for .22's. Steel matches will hopefully ignite the competitive fire in some shooters and they while naturally progress to USPSA or IDPA. The easiest way I can compare it is like this: Before you play fast pitch baseball it's really recommended that you start out in T-ball first.

[bbbean]

I think the rodeo should have a division for Shetland Ponies. I don't have a horse, and all those bucking broncos and bulls make me nervous.

[MarkCO]

I think the rodeo should have a division for Shetland Ponies. I don't have a horse, and all those bucking broncos and bulls make me nervous.

You should try Mutton Bustin', it would probably be a better division for you. The sheep are shorter and they are softer too.

[Flexmoney]

That joke was .... baaaaaaaaaaad

[JakeMartens]

That joke was .... baaaaaaaaaaad

That joke was........horrible

[59Bassman]

As I get into my 40's and I'm shooting USPSA again, I notice that a significant number of the shooters are younger than I am. I think that the shows like 3 Gun Nation and Top Shot are exposing a much larger audience to this type of shooting, and folks are coming out to try it. I'm seeing more women shooting the sports than before, as well. Many of the new shooters are in their 20's, and I think that is the future of the sport - the positive exposure through media.

At the Steel Challenge matches, I'm seeing plenty of folks bringing their kids out to shoot. It's normally with a 10/22 or similar rifle (our club allows rimfire rifle in steel), and the kids have a blast. I've yet to see them make the jump to USPSA, but I agree that this is probably the correct path. In fact, I have encouraged a number of people who are considering trying action shooting to start with steel. Starting with static positions, reloads off the clock, and no draws (in rimfire) is (IMHO) a safer way to get someone into the adrenaline of competitive shooting than dumping them into a field course.

I'm also getting the willies thinking of an inexperienced shooter with the pressure of being on a clock trying to reload a Ruger MK I or II with that awful grip release while moving - yipes!

I guess where I'm going is to say that I don't see a need for a rimfire division in USPSA. I think a rimfire match using USPSA targets and scoring is a good thing for clubs to do as an intro, but I don't think it should be a recognized division. "Outlaw" rimfire!

Edited January 20, 2012 by 59Bassman

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't think anyone is saying a .22 Action Shooting sport is a bad thing. What I believe most of the folks who are against .22 USPSA are saying is it doesn't belong in a sport primarily oriented to, and having one of it's basic principles as, firing real ammo. I like shooting my .22's. I've got a couple in the safe setup for Steel Challenge Open and just bought another 22/45 to start building that one up as well. I have a blast shooting them, and often times enjoy shooting them more than my centerfire guns. But they don't have a place in USPSA competition. There are certain things that would unacceptably water down the sport. It might be more acceptable to women and juniors to not have to reload, or draw on the clock. It doesn't mean we should compromise our core foundations to accomadate that. It would make it easier for women and children to play NFL football if they didn't hit each other. Not going to happen.

Whether you believe it or not, there are a lot of people that still consider USPSA a Practical sport. .22 would certainly diminish that.

There are options, non-USPSA action matches, Steel Challenge, Ruger Rimfire Series. All of these can be run very easily by any USPSA, or Non-USPSA club for that matter. The easiest way to recruit is to hold those matches, and promote USPSA there. We don't need to change our matches when there are already other matches that serve every purpose you've listed above.

Frankly if you club has that low of attendance it might be because, if half the stuff you've posted is true, they aren't a USPSA club. They are just running their own thing and calling it USPSA. That's the quickest way I've seen to kill a club, or at least cause real USPSA shooters to stay away.

[aztecdriver]

Frankly if you club has that low of attendance it might be because, if half the stuff you've posted is true, they aren't a USPSA club. They are just running their own thing and calling it USPSA. That's the quickest way I've seen to kill a club, or at least cause real USPSA shooters to stay away.

This. It's been my experience that low turnouts have to do with the match itself - rather than the attraction of new shooters to the sport. Put on a quality match and gain a reputation for doing so and the dedicated shooters will turn out and support the match. Put on a less than quality match where bending of the rules because the staff take an easy way out - non-legal stages and so forth - and the dedicated membership will just not go back.

You have to take a good look at why certain matches get 60+ shooters to come out and another match within 40 miles away struggles to break 30, and then ask yourself... is it because newbies aren't coming out - or because the standards bar is far too low?

[Reshoot]

Personally, I believe the club / range needs to take steps to promote shooting, not ask USPSA to do it for them.

One of my favorite ranges holds a .22 side match right after the USPSA match. I stay for it myself, and make it a full day at the range. I have watched a father teaching his son and daughter to knock down the little steel plates. Now, this is family involvement. One day those youngsters will be shooting the USPSA match right along with their father.

That's how you get the entire family involved. PLEASE don't ask USPSA to do the work YOU should be doing!