2alpha Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well again this year the Single Stack Classic will be a welfare match. Prizes will be given out by a lottery and the custom guns will be given to class winners. This sucks donkey balls!! Oh, they use the Lewis system to determine what class you're in. That's where after the scores are in the class percentages are determined and wherever you fall is your class. You could be a GM and have gun trouble or just a crappy day and win C class. How you shoot doesn't matter it's if you lucky enough to fall at the top of a class instead of the bottom of the next. I'm pretty hard core about rewarding performance but I could live with a couple of lottery prizes but I think the spoils should go to the winners not the whiners. They used USPSA classification in the past and it worked pretty well, I think Heinie just caved in to the whiners. I'll never go back to the Single Stack Classic as long as they run it as a welfare match and I wish others would join me in boycoting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I'm witcha 2alpha. (Of course it helps that I live overseas, but that's not the point) Seriously, that kind of "rewarding" has always bothered me. We have that at the bianchi cup over here. You get a prize if you come in 1st, 10th, 20th, 30th etc. That is just not fair. Some even try to make 80th, when they could have a shot for 75th, just for the prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I don't see how anybody could ask for a boycott because you don't like the way they give out prizes'. I can understand not going. I recently had an online conversation with an SC about what I thought was a problem with an up coming match. He was very informative about why it was like that and what he intends to do about it next year. I do not know anybody with the SSC but I'm curious if you have spoken with anyone of importance and what there response was. With all the bashing we get from the media and the left wing, I would think most people in the shooting sports would try to build up and improve matches not tear them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Lewis System drives me just a little bit nutz. It gave me a trophy in last summer's 4-wk league, but I didn't really deserve it. And every league season (even though I love participating) I see perfectly deserving shooters go home with nothing at the end of the 7 wks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 Jon, I guess I may be a little over the top asking others to boycot the match so I'll retract that part. I just feel strongly that this is so unfair. This kind of thinking reminds me of the liberal school districts that put all the students on the honor roll so as not to hurt the feelings of those who don't excel. (Edited by 2alpha at 9:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dame Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 2alpha, I totaly agree with you on this. Ive been screwed by the Lewis system on a few occasions. But the using the Lewis system does help to get new shooters into the sport, if you were a newby and knew you had no chance of winning anything would you take the time and money to travel to a big match? Maybe a solution to this would be to use the USPSA classifications for the big prizes and trophies then have smaller prizes for the middle guys in each class. Kind of the best of both worlds. The biggest match I have ever run was a level 2 so I don't really know how feasible that would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 Mike, when I was a newbie I did travel to a big match or two and paid my own way, I didn't expect to receive a prize unless I actually won it. USPSA classifications were used in the past and I never heard of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Having run a match or 2, admittedly in NRA Highpower and a few others, I've seen this from a few angles. In an NRA match we'll have 5 individual matches, and 3 aggreagtes, for a nornal 800 point match. We would use payouts for the winner, and each class winnerplace, based on the number of shooters in the class. Say 1 place per 5 shooters. 16 shooters we pay 1,2, and 3rd. Payouts average 10 for the winner, 8, 5 then 3 or some similar scale. All of this is based on about 150 shooters paying 45 bucks or so each. I ran a championship in Ca for 3 years, and I noticed the same names were winning every year. Many shooters looked at the prize table, and commented that "That was DeMille's prize" thinking things were a foregone conclusion... I decided to award all prizes by lottery, and still make the cash payouts to the winners. Everyone loved it! After you own a spotting scope, why do you need a second? Kowa did not want it to show up on EBay. They wanted a winner to use it! Instead, there was a cheap scope for sale. There have never been big prizes in NRA shoots, so this is a non issue in most places, despite that there are well over 45000 highpower shooters nationwide. They shoot for the fun and challenge, not a visit to a prize table. USPSA has always been different but I think it has fostered an attitude of "I want it as a reward" as opposed to those who shoot just for the competition. Lewis class is a joke; I think a lottery is much better! The best might be a payout similar to the NRA scale with each stage being a match and having some reward, and a lottery of prizes. That way everyone has a chance of something, while those who excell will also be rewarded. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 At a recent three-gun match they decided to pay the winners in several categories and to also pay the last place shooter who completed the entire match ----- as a way to encourage the beginners to return. Hopefully it's the first and last time I receive a check for that kind of (non)performance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Further investigation reveals that the main reason for changing to the Lewis system is to make it easier to classify IDPA shooters who don't have a USPSA classification. BTW, previously the Single Stack Classic used USPSA classifications. This really burns! In order to placate shooters from an org that doesn't shoot for prizes everyone gets shafted. The class winners will get the custom pistols that are given each year, the other prizes are to be given by lottery. As to the same guys winning each time, that doesn't reflect on the organization as much as it does the shooters who let the same guys win everytime. TGO wins the SSC every year, by a huge margin usually. Who's fault is that? Maybe they should make him shoot weak hand only this year to let someone else win. LOL This topic is getting pretty hot on the 1911 forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 What makes you think TGO wouldn't win weak hand only? He is, TGO, afterall. Cheers! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Weak hand, wearing flippers and a camo kilt... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 And when he did Arendendo will be selling racing flippers is wild colors, Shooters Connection will sell shooting kilts with pockets for everything, Springfield Armory will produce the WTF ( Weakhand Tactical Firearm ) and a new shooting guru will appear to teach Weak Hand Only to Win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I shot the SSC last year for the first time, despite some malfunctions both mental and equipment I enjoyed the match. Didn't bring anything home other than what I took except a lot of good memories and the experence of shooting on the same squad as Robby. As he says he does't have a weak hand. He could have sat the last two stages out and still won by 20 points. You can't put a price on an experence like that and I don't shoot for the prizes anyway. You are correct that Lewis class does suck, walk the prize table as you finish. Its still a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 2alpha, Have you shot the Steel Challenge? Almost all the non-cash prizes are awarded based on order of finish overall. They could care less if you are USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy or other wise. Oh, by the way, TGO was first overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mainus Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I couldn't agree with you more. The SSC used to be a great match until last year. They had a master class shooter win B class with the lewis system. The problem at the SSC is that TGO beats everybody so badly that it throws the curve way off. He gets 100% of the match points but because he is so good, the second place shooter is at 80 or 85% of him. Not one to usually complain about prizes,I always just shoot for the fun of it. It just seems to me that the powers that be at the SSC are just getting lazy and don't want to go through the work of classifing everybody. Rant mode off. Don't want to get on the people at the SSC to hard because it is usually a great match to shoot, and without their hard work we would not have these matches to go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Before everyone rushes off to buy a genuine TGO endorsed Shooting Kilt let me remind you that the proper way to dress under a kilt is to wear shoes and socks...that is it. It is generally referred to as "regimental" amongst the kilt wearers I know. Think about that next time you are observing a shooter go prone on the firing line. Still think a shooting kilt is a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I honestly think the Lewis System is a good system because lets face it, there are alot of shooters that cheat the classification system in USPSA. I have shot in the high end of my class in B Limited for the last 3 years at an area match at about 70-75%, yet the class winner is ALWAYS in the 90-95% of the match winner. I go to shoot, not to win prizes, cash or whatever. The Lewis system in my opinion, brings fun back into the sport because yes, you can have a bad day and still come out with a trophy. Too many people in USPSA worry about winning guns and what order they go to the prize table that they forget to have a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBneACP Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 There's a company out of Seattle that sells "tactical kilts." Honest to god. Lots of pockets. No plaid. Sort of like Royal Robbins on bad acid. I seriously considered buying one to wear to an IDPA match, but my pal Dave Arnold wouldn't let me. Said I'd only humiliate myself even more than usual. mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 Rufus the Bum said: The Lewis system in my opinion, brings fun back into the sport because yes, you can have a bad day and still come out with a trophy. You describe an attitude that I believe is contrary to what competition is about and is exactly what is wrong with the Lewis system. The fact that the USPSA classification system is not perfect shouldn't be an excuse to revert to luck as a means of determining the winner. If you're a competitor you can be concerned about where you place in a competition and still have a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I totally agree that it is a competition and competitors should be concerned with how they place and good performancee should be rewarded. Without sounding argumentative in in any way, have you ever seen a competitor who screws up a stage and afterwards, throws his magazines in his bag, starts cursing like a sailor and basically just whining? If a person is that concerened about his finish that he should act like that, then maybe they have lost focus of why they are in this sport to begin with. Case in point, the 02 TX Ltd. I saw a guy really screw up a stage, and when he got back to the shooting bench, he let into the biggest, most foul-mouthed tyrade I've ever heard, I'm not offended by cursing, but I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I heard a great quote from a movie one time and it was "What's the point of being the best, if it brings out the worst in you?" I think the current classification, with it's pro's and con's, is a good system, but I applaud match directors who chose to use the Lewis system because, it shows there more concerened about people having a good time. Just my opinion, for what it's worth. Rufus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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