ICASE

[Alan550]

Well, I've waited long enough, so here goes. There's a movement afoot, for lack of a better term, to pull away from the NRA, and do to them what IDPA did to IPSC. So far, there are 3 countries on board: USA, New Zealand and Canada.

For lack of a better name, we came up with ICASE. International Confederation of Action Shooting Enthusiasts, with all due apologies to Jerry Miculek and ICORE!

We, at our local matches, are going back to the 1997 rule book where touching the barricade isn't forbidden, nor is prone shooting forbiden for any class of firearm. If a shooter wants the scores turned in to the NRA, and wants to abide by the 2004 rules, that's their choice. Within a couple of years, NRA is going to change things so much that you won't have a "Bianchi Gun" anymore, and the only place the new rules will be in effect will be at the Cup.

There are several clubs here in the US that are going this new route, mainly on the east coast and in the south. For new shooters coming in wanting a classification card from NRA, we'll allow them to shoot as they please, whatever positions or equipment that was allowed in the 1997 rules. As time goes by and the Bianchi cup attendance dwindles so badly that it's finally disowned by the NRA, ICASE wil be organized well enough to keep the sport alive.

As you've probably read on here already, we were basically told to "go to hell" at the Cup this year by the Rules committee. That was the largest shooter's meeting I've seen in my years at the event, and the people who put out the money were told that their opinions don't matter.

Some shooter's there (NZ) spent over $6,000 just to be there and shoot. When there's that much acrimony at a shooter's meeting and the powers-that-be ignore it, there's a serious problem with the sport.

Sorry for the long post, but we're going to higher places with this sport without NRA backing and I had to get the word out about the "Columbia Conference of 2004".

Alan~^~

[Kimberkid]

Alan,

right on man. I would be very interested to shoot the match as it was when I started. I think your on to a good idea. I cant say that I forsee everything panning out, but I would definetly be behind you on it. Anything I can personally do here in the Winamac area, just let me know and I will pose the idea to everyone else, and see what they think. We sure missed you there this year, hopefully we wont have to miss you and Kevin next year.

Mike

[gm iprod]

Count me in.

I know the guys that went up for the Cup from New Zealand and I was to be there, but due to the cost and a family issue I had to skip it. New Zealand has sent at least two people from here up to the Cup for the last ten years that I can recall. Everytime they paid there own way, and some of them really put in the hard yards to get there. This year our National Association put up the entry fees, to help, as it was supposed to be a World Shoot. I intend to be up for the 2005 Cup but that is very dependant on how things pan out with the rules.

What they (the NRA rules committee) have done and the way we were treated, was crap.

The NZ Pistol Association put on the 1999 World Shoot and 6 or 7 countries made a long trip down here (we finally got to meet many of the guys we usually only read about, even Mickey Fowler broke a smile), a few years previous to that the Australians put on a similar event, since 1999 I feel we have been treated poorly by the NRA etc. and I forsee things getting worse. How is it that so many nice peopel shoot NRA but mental midgets run the show.

This thing has to be a World thing, if you let it get to a US versus the rest you will kill shooting in many countries, the Aussies are right in the crapper at the moment and this does not help. The English are essentially screwed thanks to the commie bastard running the show, and much of Europe is heading down that slippery slope.

They have to realise that in 2003 there were 45 international competitors, some admitedly now live in the US but they were there. How many from overseas went this year?

[BigDave]

damn...my initial impression is that this is the last thing our sport needs right now

One of the Kiwi contingent at the Q&A meeting said something to the effect "if you want to do whats good for the shooters and good for the sport; do what the shooters want". You know what? I want to drive 100 mph everwhere I go, without fear of a ticket too. (no smarta** comments about being a police officer either). Here's a dose of reality that some folks "in" the sport can't deal with: what is good for you isn't good for the sport.

This sport did not originate with a group of shooters sitting around, drink in hand (if that's your thing), saying "you know what I want? i want to...". No. John Bianchi started it as a shooting test. The championship was by invitation only in the early days. If the board wants to tweek the rules to keep the test fresh and, most importantly alive, fine by me. I shoot Metallic Sight, so its no big deal to me. How many Open shooters cleaned the Barricade this year? Right now, you might as well have called this match "The Mover" because that is what decides it. Yeah, Bruce dropped a couple of pts on the Practical, but that was fluke. Same with a few others I can name.

Answer this question: if the sports numbers and participation has been declining yearly with the 97 rules, how do you expect to grow? Do you expect to grow? What is your plan?

Please, I'll be the first to agree that a little revolution is a healthy thing every now and then. But, I don't think you thoroughly thought this thing out.

[JimmyB]

This thing has to be a World thing, if you let it get to a US versus the rest you will kill shooting in many countries, the Aussies are right in the crapper at the moment and this does not help. The English are essentially screwed thanks to the commie bastard running the show, and much of Europe is heading down that slippery slope.

We were screwed before Blair got in, but he certainly didn't help anything

Someone has got to view this thing from a sporting angle, after all it didn't really alter who won the match did it? When I go, I go to try and win and as long as everyone shoots to the same rules, it shouldn't be an issue to me.

Splitting away from the NRA may or may not be a good thing, I'm not sure as there are two sides to the discussion. One thing the NRA really does need to push forward is the fact that competitors from all over the world travel to the US to safely compete in a premier shooting tournament.

However, I think that the way the NRA approached the rule changes was pretty unfair, surely something that provoked so much hostility from the competitors should have been dealt with in a better way?

[rhino]

Wouldn't doing it "old school" imply reverting to the original rules and the equipment used in those days? I would prefer that over the 1997 rules by a long shot, but you would not see red dots or barricade shrouds since I doubt if anyone used them the first couple of years.

Let's look at how the idea of IDPA started, then how the game was actually implemented. The idea was to return to the roots of IPSC, but when it was actually implemented, the actual implementation of the game of IDPA bears very little resemblence to the origins of IPSC, nor does the "spirit" of the game.

It may be a case of "you can't go home again," but I think that if you start a new organization, it's not going to be as much like what you remember from the good old days when you finally hit the range and do it.

[Dirty Steve]

By excluding wings and mover scopes/mounts guys with IPSC guns can shoot the sport with out the need for buying a new expensive gun. This should draw more new shooters. I just wish Glock would fund a buddy of mine to shoot the cup a couple times and that would show every one Glocks could do well in the open class(If the new changes go into effect) and possibly increase attemdance in the cup and local matches. Any GSSF'ers out thier Clem is who I am refering to..

We need to keep the NRA alive and healthy or we won't keep our guns. We all know whay Hillary will do if she gets an opening.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[JimmyB]

By excluding wings and mover scopes/mounts guys with IPSC guns can shoot the sport with out the need for buying a new expensive gun. This should draw more new shooters. I just wish Glock would fund a buddy of mine to shoot the cup a couple times and that would show every one Glocks could do well in the open class(If the new changes go into effect) and possibly increase attemdance in the cup and local matches. Any GSSF'ers out thier Clem is who I am refering to..

We need to keep the NRA alive and healthy or we won't keep our guns. We all know whay Hillary will do if she gets an opening.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Yes, if you exclude wings etc there will be more people who could shoot it, but I don't remember anywhere in the rules that says you have to have all of these things.

One guy who shoots the best mover match I've seen doesn't use a special 'scope or mount, just a regular pro-point. Kimberkid should know who I'm talking about.

You don't need all of the "bells & whistles" to shoot the match well, just practice, a good attitude and more practice.

Back to the topic, ICASE sounds as though it could be a good thing, if it's well run, although I think it should be in conjunction with the NRA, as oppsed to in competition with them.

[SRT Driver]

Hmmm...interesting. The 'Cup existed before the NRA was involved.

So I wonder if the NRA would turn the AP program and Bianchi over to ICASE since it is such a black hole?

[rhino]

I just wish Glock would fund a buddy of mine to shoot the cup a couple times and that would show every one Glocks could do well in the open class(If the new changes go into effect) and possibly increase attemdance in the cup and local matches. Any GSSF'ers out thier Clem is who I am refering to..

I believe Dave Sevigny and Julie Goloski were at the Bianchi Cup shooting for Glock.

[Flexmoney]

Wouldn't doing it "old school" imply...

The title of this thread shouldn't be a concern. I moved the first post here from another thread...thought it needed/deserved it's own discussion. I had to come up with a title to go with.

The "old school" bit was moderating editing, not original content added by the "players".

[Alan550]

So much to respond to and so little time........whew!

I'll start with Flex. The rules would be according to the 1997 book before they outlawed prone for what was then "Stock Guns".

Jimmyb: I want NRA alive & well too! They just don't seem to want us anymore. The so-called "prize bags" this year, along with the shooter's bags at the beginning, didn't include many things that we've learned to take for granted at the Cup. No caps (you had to buy one if you wanted it) and some of the sponsors pulled out. For example, there was no card for a free Brownell's catalog this year. Why did they leave us? There was no Bianchi Cup pin this year either, unless you bought it. If there was one available it was at the NRA table.

This NRA is slowly taking away the enjoyment for the ones of us who have practiced so long using the so-called "old rules". Sure, it might "level the playing field" to take away wings and mover scopes but so would taking slings and shooting coats away from the high-power shooters. Wonder how long that rule change (made without input from the shooters) would last?

They obviously have an agenda to get rid of the Cup. The expense of it was mentioned so many times it isn't funny.

We plan to still have NRA sanctioned matches at our club, but if a shooter wants to go prone with ANY gun, that's ok with us. It will be stated in the "Match Director's Bulletin" that scores fired under those conditions won't be sent to NRA to keep them from being reclassified using methods that aren't acceptable at the Cup.

After ICASE gets off the ground and organized well enough to be a sanctioning body, we can tell the NRA the same thing they told us at the shooter's meeting! To use the vernacular of my friends from NZ, they told us to "get stuffed".

More later.

Alan~^~

[IYAOYAS]

So whats the new rule changes? No wings or mover scopes?

I'm so lost!!!!

[SRT Driver]

IYAOYAS,

No, mover bases and wings are not illegal YET. Wings were suggested as the next item on the chopping block. Maybe next year.

Dave and Julie inspired me to throw the Glock in the bag and shoot a match. So that's next.

[brentm]

man oh man im getting a sinking feeling...AP going down.

shooters around the world would agree changes to the rules to improve this match - but thats the crunch....improve for who?

it seems to me shooters and the NRA rules comittee have a different option as to what is needed to improve this match. are they just after more people period? or do they see these changes as actually improving the shooting test these four matches provide?

the comittee says lets improve the match by changing dramatically the very things that make AP a match unlike any other...its not ipsc, pins, steel etc

shooting prone slow & fast where else was it done? now its lost!

shooting a barracade hold? going to be lost...

mover bases next for sure...dots, comps? (bugger think of the money spent and now thrown away)

AP unlimited is like indi-cars, like formula 1 the top of the heap- let all the inovations be used is some match. to be honest im all for letting more pistols shoot this match but im not convinced about losing these aspects of AP.

well we as shooters now need to ask ourselves do we like where this comittee is taking us...

Brentm

[Kimberkid]

A couple responses just so I know I put them out there.

Jimmy, great to hear from you again, we missed you much this year, and yes, I do know who you are talking about.

Dave, I got all the respect for you in the world, BUT it doesnt matter how many people cleaned it. That isnt the point. Saying it is an easy clean in Open is an insult. There is nothing EASY in this game, nothing is given, everything is EARNED. I have NEVER cleaned the barricade, but I have given nearly year round dedication and a shithouse of money to this sport and it is BS to change it because the popular kid in school wants it. I also dont shoot AP to improve for IPSC, I shoot AP to improve at AP. I am trying to reach the goals I set when I started, change the rules and those same goals are now drastically different. I know this is all repeated shit, but I feel like I gotta say it. BTW, sorry Dave, that wasnt all at you.

In 10 years when people are cleaning it without prone, wings, shrouds, mover bases? are we going to stand on 1 foot? or hop up and down? or rub our tummies while saying "rubber baby buggy bumpers"? how far is it all gonna go? or can we just go shoot like we used to?

sorry, im done now.

[JimmyB]

You're language is terrible young man, I hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth!!

He's got a point though

[BigDave]

KK - Sorry man, and everyone else, I wasn't trying to make light of any aspect of shooting this game. It is damn difficult for everyone (and that, folks, is what makes this sport so great!!!). I re-read my post, and those comments were out of line. I will tell you though that a member of the AP board did say that Barricade wings were a "crutch" (his words, in public, at the Q&A meeting).

I think the real question here is what is the point of the rule changes? It isn't to shake up the scores, although that will be one result. It isn't to alienate those who shoot the sport in Open, although some will be. I think the point is to modify the rules to allow people with equipment they use in other sports (read: USPSA/IPSC Open and Modified) so that participation in this sport increases".

Alan, you mention the lack of prizes, shooters bags, hats and sponsors leaving. This year, 158 competitors were listed in the final scores. I was shooter number 180. What happened to the other 22 no-shows (maybe some didn't make chrono? not sure how that works there)? 2003's results show scores for 156 competitors. 2002? 149. 2001? Scores for 155. At $300 a head, quick math and round numbers tells you ~$45,000 per match. This is listed as a $200,000 tournament. To me, its crystal clear why some of the goodies went away this year. You want more goodies? You want sponsors back? Get the more people to the match!!!

[JimmyB]

Would anyone suggest modifying Formula 1 rules so that sportscar drivers could compete with their existing cars?

Would IPSC modify their rules so that revolver shooters can use their open AP guns?

If a member of the AP board publicly said that barricade wings were a "crutch", what is next on the list of things to go? This is not progress.

The numbers are declining, there's no doubt about that, but I don't think changing the rules will help that in the slightest. For many of the people that I know, the pure expense of the match is the biggest downfall. It isn't just the entry fee, you have to look at travelling, hotel bills, time off work etc. Doing some numbers, 150 entries at $300 isn't as good as 180 entries at $250. I know the sharp eyed mathematicians will be quick to point out that it's the same total, but it's 30 extra competitors, consumers and advertisers for the match at the local clubs. If the NRA is making a big deal about the running costs for the match, get them to publish the accounts and if they don't want the match anymore, then yes, maybe it is time to hand over the reins.

[Flexmoney]

I don't really have a dog in this fight...and I don't know which side I fall on the shrouds thing...

But...I do see this:

Would IPSC modify their rules so that revolver shooters can use their open AP guns?

No need for modification...they can do so already. And, when you ask/answer why they don't...you will also have the answer to why IPSC guys don't show up to the cup with their current equipment.

Also, the cost...there will be an IPSC/USPSA Major match nearly every weekend from now until well into the fall. They will all have about 150 shooters (some more). People will be traveling to those, and spending the money for such.

$300 match fee? For a carnival match (not meaning that badly)? One that doesn't have fantastic turnout (supply/demand)? That is too much. I can shoot the same, or similar stages locally for $15. And, I can...pretty much...know what my score will be before I go (ball park, anyway).

[JimmyB]

But...I do see this:

Would IPSC modify their rules so that revolver shooters can use their open AP guns?

No need for modification...they can do so already. And, when you ask/answer why they don't...you will also have the answer to why IPSC guys don't show up to the cup with their current equipment.

Yes they can.

Answers to why they dont:

1 Why should they?

2 Why shouldn't they?

It's a matter of choice isn't it?

I don't expect course designers to make exceptions because I shoot a revolver, I know what the cof involves and it's my decision to go and shoot it.

[Flexmoney]

It's a matter of choice isn't it?

Sure is. I guess if you aren't an IPSC/USPA fan then it might not matter to you at all.

But, there are plenty of Open shooters in USPSA...hardly any make the choice to shoot with an Open revolver. All other things being equal...it just isn't competitive.

I like the idea of Open equipment being wide-freakin-open. But, I know I will never build a dedicated Open gun for Bianchi.

Along those same lines, I will never go to the Cup...and pay a $300 entry fee...to shoot "heads-up" against the shooters with those specialized guns.

We had that kind of equipment race in USPSA...and it was a factor in the formation of IDPA.

[JimmyB]

It's a matter of choice isn't it?

Sure is. I guess if you aren't an IPSC/USPA fan then it might not matter to you at all.

But, there are plenty of Open shooters in USPSA...hardly any make the choice to shoot with an Open revolver. All other things being equal...it just isn't competitive.

Along those same lines, I will never go to the Cup...and pay a $300 entry fee...to shoot "heads-up" against the shooters with those specialized guns.

"Sure is. I guess if you aren't an IPSC/USPA fan then it might not matter to you at all."

I enjoyed shooting it because I was using my revolver. I knew I wasn't competitive, it was just fun to see how I compared.

You have a good point about the cost though, it is an expensive match to shoot.

[BigDave]

The Barricade grasp technique started with a revolver. It wasn't a technological advance, it was "gaming" the stage. Brian Enos was using a slab sided revolver with no wings. Then technology caught up to the technique with the auto shroud and wings. Rob Leatham proved this year, along with one of the Border Patrol folks, that you do not need a dot to clean the Mover, much less a mover mount. Human ability has out paced technology, and in this case, the the mover mount. Of the top 10, only 6 cleaned the Mover, and one of those with irons.

Under the current Action Pistol rules, there is a home for everyone who shoots any other practical pistol game (USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, Bullseye) except for Open USPSA/IPSC. Every USPSA Limited Gun I know of or have read about can shoot in Metallic Sight. Any other catalog (sp?) gun has a home in Production. Every revolver, except the 5 shots, has a home (as long as the barrel is under 8 5/8", but how many of those are around anyway). If they changed the Barricade rules to that wings/shrouds were not a factor, every gun used in practical pistol shooting today could come play at the Bianchi Cup. The only other thing left to do is promote the ever living s**t out of the thing. Plus, if they did that, next to the Steel Challenge, this would be one of the, if not the most friendly gun game out there from an equipment standpoint. Capacity is not a factor as all strings are 6 shot neutral. USPSA/IPSC can't even claim that.

Bianchi's rules and equipment evolution have put it on an island. I'll be the first to jump about and shout "hooray" because of all of the fine equipment, technology and marksmanship that has come out of this event. However, I think this same thing that has made this match so unique and special will ultimately bring about its undoing if someone doesn't turn the wheel. There are several good examples throughout history, and not just in shooting, that support this.

$300 for a carnival match? Yeah, there's also $10,000 on the line for the winner, $5000 to the Metallic Sight champ. It isn't chump change. Doug Koenig shoots these matches, and wins, becuase of the high payouts. Years ago, it was nearly $20k as I've been told. Plus, all it takes is a single, dedicated, focused individual to come and knock Doug, Bruce and Rob off (and despite claims to the contrary, they are mortal). I swear if Steve Anderson put his mind to it, he'd be the first person to score a 1920/192x, and personally, I'd love to see it.

[brentm]

the guys orchestrating rule changes really havent considered how easy it is to alienate those very shooters who currently form the backbone of AP purely by outdating or ruling out current equipment...

i shot a unlimited revolver in AP for ten years and had many successes but more standing so i decided to change to an auto...

im pissed now cos i feel i just wasted thousands - why?

it a single stack...it has a shroud....

if id know this was the intent to progressively loose the 'gear' id have spent the money on something more versatile

the mover base is next....bugger i go one of those too!!

waste waste waste i choose gear that will last me years - now i got one season

i bet these guys say lets get lots of new shooters ...maybe they need to think gee how do we keep the one we got now & get more ....

Brentm