1911vm Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 What is a true difference between a competition and a combat rifle. The only one thing that I might understand is trigger. Single vs double , but with that logic that would disqualify all 1911s that are being used in LEO and MIL worlds. So what is the difference. I have a 18in 3 gun ar and started thinking about “tactical rifle” or combat rifle. And the only things that I could think of that I would want different is barrel length and a flashlight. Any suggestions and pic. would be helpful. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrider18 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Battle Rifle: Heavier trigger, you don't want a light trigger (<5#) especially in a select fire weapon. Yes, a crisp trigger is desired. Springs, definitely the chrome silicone variety. Never a Titanium firing pin. You don't need light strikes on primers in a battle rifle. Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS) an absolute necessity on a battle rifle. Forged Upper and Lower receiver with no milling to lighten overall mass (leave the milling to game rifles). Barrel length: 16" max. Many SF military units issue 14.5" or 10.5" M4s. Mid length gas tubes are becoming more the norm in 14.5" and 16" rifles due to enhanced reliability. Yes, 20" barreled rifles are issued to many soldiers and Marines. However, these individuals are usually in support units, not front line combat units. Kyle Lamb has been shooting a JP rifle since he retired from the USA. A battle rifle (whether for military, LEO or home defense) should be a robust weapon, equipped with accessories and parts that will not only keep you in the fight, but, allow you to win the fight. A "race rifle" can be darn near equipped with anything you can imagine and lightened to the extreme. After all your life, or more importantly the lives of others, does not depend on its reliability or ability to function in adverse environments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Roadrider about covered it - a military rifle is overall going to be a beefier, more robust weapon than a competition rifle. This extends even to the so-called 'service rifles' you'll find on the line at the National Matches at Camp Perry. Those look like M16A2s, but feature free floated handguards, weighted buttstocks (lead in the cleaning kit compartment - stability is king at Camp Perry, not speed), match triggers, and finer sights. (Note on terminology - there is a difference between assault rifles, which fire intermediate rounds like 5.56, 5.45x39, and 7.62x39, and 'battle rifles' which fire bigger rounds, generally 7.62 NATO, such as the M14, FAL, and G3) Military rifles have a rougher life, even when they're not being used. A competition rifle rides to the range in a padded case. A military rifle either gets hand carried by a soldier, either packed in Bluebird bus or the back of a 5-ton, or it may get to ride in a steel rack with 9 of its friends, in the back of a 5-ton or HEMTT. My M4 rode to Afghanistan (and back) on the floor of the plane, getting kicked, occasionally stepped on, etc. And you'd never strap your competition rifle to your side and step out the door of a C-130, let it slam into the ground at 22-25 fps, then have 200+ pounds of paratrooper and equipment land on it at a similar velocity, and bet your life on it functioning. M16s and M4s do this routinely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 A competition rifle is designed to work 100% when properly maintained and deliver accuracy, and follow up shots to the utmost degree. A combat weapon has to function 100%...period. Tolerances will likely be looser, adjustable gas systems (unless needed for suppressed use) go away, 1.5 pound triggers, compensators and long barrels all give way in favor of guns that won't deliver same accuracy level as a competition rifle, but will run 100%. Combat arms, in base form will be lighter, but may end up the same or heavier by the time lights, lasers and NVD's or thermal optics are added. As an example, Competition Rifle JP CTR-02, 18" mid weight barrel, adjustable gas, Cooley comp, Leupold 1.5-5 MR/T Scope and Delta Point, 1.5 lb JP trigger Work Rifle Larue Stealth upper, 12.5" barrel, std gas, SureFire MR556AR Suppressor, Surefire M320 light, Aimpoint M4, 6lb trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I used the word battle rifle . because tactical is so terribly over used . LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 My gut tells me that if there is an optic on this hypothetical "battle" rifle, it is more likely to be an Acog, Eotech, Aimpoint, or Elcan vs a $3,000 zip whooie 1-6 scope. Just a gut feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Battle Rifle: Heavier trigger, you don't want a light trigger (<5#) especially in a select fire weapon. Yes, a crisp trigger is desired. Springs, definitely the chrome silicone variety. Never a Titanium firing pin. You don't need light strikes on primers in a battle rifle. Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS) an absolute necessity on a battle rifle. Forged Upper and Lower receiver with no milling to lighten overall mass (leave the milling to game rifles). Barrel length: 16" max. Many SF military units issue 14.5" or 10.5" M4s. Mid length gas tubes are becoming more the norm in 14.5" and 16" rifles due to enhanced reliability. Yes, 20" barreled rifles are issued to many soldiers and Marines. However, these individuals are usually in support units, not front line combat units. Kyle Lamb has been shooting a JP rifle since he retired from the USA. A battle rifle (whether for military, LEO or home defense) should be a robust weapon, equipped with accessories and parts that will not only keep you in the fight, but, allow you to win the fight. A "race rifle" can be darn near equipped with anything you can imagine and lightened to the extreme. After all your life, or more importantly the lives of others, does not depend on its reliability or ability to function in adverse environments. Totally disagree on the trigger. When your life is on the line being able to hit the threat quickly and accurately is key and a heavy trigger hinders that ability. You don't need a trigger so light you can't feel it but a Gi 7 pound trigger is total crap in my opinion. I wrote our policy to allow for triggers as low as 3.5 pounds on patrol guns and 2.5 on precision rifles. I also prefer chrome lined bores for work as they are more reliable if you don't or can't clean your weapon as often as you should. I prefer a full mass bolt carrier system no adjustable gas as its something to go wrong and does. Keep chrome silicon springs out of my guns thank you. Seen them turn into a rusty mess in my wet climate. Barrel length dependso n your duties. 16 is a good compromise between doign entries and perimeter work. If just doing entries then 10.5 inch guns with sound suppressors make a lot of sense. My work gun. My three gun rifle. pat Edited November 29, 2011 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Bayonet lug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 A combat rifle is made by the lowest bidder??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 A combat rifle is made by the lowest bidder??? I doubt Colt would have gotten the M4 contracts that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Battle Rifle: Heavier trigger, you don't want a light trigger (<5#) especially in a select fire weapon. Yes, a crisp trigger is desired. Springs, definitely the chrome silicone variety. Never a Titanium firing pin. You don't need light strikes on primers in a battle rifle. Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS) an absolute necessity on a battle rifle. Forged Upper and Lower receiver with no milling to lighten overall mass (leave the milling to game rifles). Barrel length: 16" max. Many SF military units issue 14.5" or 10.5" M4s. Mid length gas tubes are becoming more the norm in 14.5" and 16" rifles due to enhanced reliability. Yes, 20" barreled rifles are issued to many soldiers and Marines. However, these individuals are usually in support units, not front line combat units. Kyle Lamb has been shooting a JP rifle since he retired from the USA. A battle rifle (whether for military, LEO or home defense) should be a robust weapon, equipped with accessories and parts that will not only keep you in the fight, but, allow you to win the fight. A "race rifle" can be darn near equipped with anything you can imagine and lightened to the extreme. After all your life, or more importantly the lives of others, does not depend on its reliability or ability to function in adverse environments. Is that a JP in the video or the S&W M&P VTAC model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 A combat rifle is made by the lowest bidder??? I doubt Colt would have gotten the M4 contracts that way That's why I put the question marks behind that sentence. The alternative and long winded explanation was that the competition criteria was written in such a way that only one contractor, Colt, could win the bid or competition regardless of price per unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) A combat rifle is made by the lowest bidder??? Not quite. You have to pass all the tests and deliver a product that meets a certain level after that then the lowest bigger gets it. Also FN makes M16 and Colt makes M4's others have tried to get the contact but came up short. Colt does make a damn fine AR. Pat Edited November 29, 2011 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrider18 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Battle Rifle: Heavier trigger, you don't want a light trigger (<5#) especially in a select fire weapon. Yes, a crisp trigger is desired. Springs, definitely the chrome silicone variety. Never a Titanium firing pin. You don't need light strikes on primers in a battle rifle. Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS) an absolute necessity on a battle rifle. Forged Upper and Lower receiver with no milling to lighten overall mass (leave the milling to game rifles). Barrel length: 16" max. Many SF military units issue 14.5" or 10.5" M4s. Mid length gas tubes are becoming more the norm in 14.5" and 16" rifles due to enhanced reliability. Yes, 20" barreled rifles are issued to many soldiers and Marines. However, these individuals are usually in support units, not front line combat units. Kyle Lamb has been shooting a JP rifle since he retired from the USA. A battle rifle (whether for military, LEO or home defense) should be a robust weapon, equipped with accessories and parts that will not only keep you in the fight, but, allow you to win the fight. A "race rifle" can be darn near equipped with anything you can imagine and lightened to the extreme. After all your life, or more importantly the lives of others, does not depend on its reliability or ability to function in adverse environments. Is that a JP in the video or the S&W M&P VTAC model? I presumed it was a JP rifle since it has the JP Modular Hand Guard System installed. AlaskaPoPo.... OK, I will go down to 4.5#. I will agree to that number since that is what Bill Geisselle and SOCOM determined to be optimum for highly skilled operators. The SSA trigger is set up with a 2.5# first stage and a 2# second stage. I have this trigger installed in my 6920s. I also have the Geiselle HK416 trigger in my 416. I very serious doubt you will find a sub 5# trigger in a government battle rifle outside the SOCOM community. Modifications such as these would result in NJP for the offender. For an experienced down range security contractor, the Geiselle trigger would be optimum. A sub 5# trigger will require additional training IMO. Especially in room clearing and CQB. Without a rigorous training schedule and completely ingrained procedures, I think one is asking for an ND in a high stress situation and environment with a sub 5# trigger. I don't consider a precision rifle or SPR a battle rifle. Note this operator using his Precision Rifle while his M4 battle rifle at his side. Agreed, the M14 was designated a battle rifle many decades ago. However, today, it has been rebuilt by Ron Smith, and others, into highly accurate precision rifles for use by designated marksmen. Edited November 29, 2011 by Roadrider18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Battle Rifle: Heavier trigger, you don't want a light trigger (<5#) especially in a select fire weapon. Yes, a crisp trigger is desired. Springs, definitely the chrome silicone variety. Never a Titanium firing pin. You don't need light strikes on primers in a battle rifle. Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS) an absolute necessity on a battle rifle. Forged Upper and Lower receiver with no milling to lighten overall mass (leave the milling to game rifles). Barrel length: 16" max. Many SF military units issue 14.5" or 10.5" M4s. Mid length gas tubes are becoming more the norm in 14.5" and 16" rifles due to enhanced reliability. Yes, 20" barreled rifles are issued to many soldiers and Marines. However, these individuals are usually in support units, not front line combat units. Kyle Lamb has been shooting a JP rifle since he retired from the USA. A battle rifle (whether for military, LEO or home defense) should be a robust weapon, equipped with accessories and parts that will not only keep you in the fight, but, allow you to win the fight. A "race rifle" can be darn near equipped with anything you can imagine and lightened to the extreme. After all your life, or more importantly the lives of others, does not depend on its reliability or ability to function in adverse environments. Is that a JP in the video or the S&W M&P VTAC model? I presumed it was a JP rifle since it has the JP Modular Hand Guard System installed. AlaskaPoPo.... OK, I will go down to 4.5#. I will agree to that number since that is what Bill Geisselle and SOCOM determined to be optimum for highly skilled operators. The SSA trigger is set up with a 2.5# first stage and a 2# second stage. I have this trigger installed in my 6920s. I also have the Geiselle HK416 trigger in my 416. I very serious doubt you will find a sub 5# trigger in a government battle rifle outside the SOCOM community. Modifications such as these would result in NJP for the offender. For an experienced down range security contractor, the Geiselle trigger would be optimum. A sub 5# trigger will require additional training IMO. Especially in room clearing and CQB. Without a rigorous training schedule and completely ingrained procedures, I think one is asking for an ND in a high stress situation and environment with a sub 5# trigger. I don't consider a precision rifle or SPR a battle rifle. Note this operator using his Precision Rifle while his M4 battle rifle at his side. Agreed, the M14 was designated a battle rifle many decades ago. However, today, it has been rebuilt by Ron Smith, and others, into highly accurate precision rifles for use by designated marksmen. I also think the SSA is about ideal on a duty rifle. It does not feel as heavy as its listed. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Simple, A combat/battle rifle is what is issued to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 One is used in competition, one in battle. I don't own any battle rifles, but I do own a few former battle rifles. Inanimate objects are not imbued with intent. Same reason I shun the use of the term "weapon" which some people just love to use. (as I always say I've never used a firearm as a weapon (not counting hunting etc). I have used a pick axe handle and a shovel as a weapon on two separate occasions. I don't go around referring to my shovel as "my weapon". ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 From a practical point of view... If you are going to have to schlep the rifle around along with a ton of gear, every inch and every ounce you can shave off of it will work in your favor. If not, then an 18" heavy contour barrel with a variable scope and bipod is very nice to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 From a practical point of view... If you are going to have to schlep the rifle around I think the mil-spec word is "hump". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The last time me and my "Team" had to clear the Orange Julius of deranged high school delinquents and violent blood thirsty soccer moms all jacked up on the Starbucks juice we employed our "Battle rifles" with unmatched effectiveness. We use Colt M4's with green lasers, infrared target illuminators and high output strobe lights, cause they are the best. And just in case I have a stoppage in my rifle (cause thats what the cool people call malfunctions) I can quickly transition to my gold Deserrt Eagle in .50 AE. We also have a sniper who covers us from the second floor of the mall, up by the Urban Outfitters. They don't let us have any bullets for our guns anymore, but I bought me some of that T.A.P. ammo and keep it in my truck vault mounted behind the seat of my golf cart just in case the shit gets heavy. I see that our leader (Code name BIG Chuck) posted earlier in this thread, otherwise I would not have broken my cover and posted on an unsecured internet channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrider18 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 As I was taught many decades ago at Quantico... "This is my rifle, this is my gun, one is for killin' and this one is for fun"! Why it is called 3 GUN (fun) and not something else..... I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 A combat rifle is made by the lowest bidder??? Not quite. You have to pass all the tests and deliver a product that meets a certain level after that then the lowest bigger gets it. Also FN makes M16 and Colt makes M4's others have tried to get the contact but came up short. Colt does make a damn fine AR. Pat Chills1994 (that's me) already wrote: That's why I put the question marks behind that sentence. The alternative and long winded explanation was that the competition criteria was written in such a way that only one contractor, Colt, could win the bid or competition regardless of price per unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Same thing to me. Since I'm not in the military anymore and I don't think the sheriff us planning on calling me to help with a riot my only battle need would be something to sit in the corner for home defense. Since I'm a gambling man and don't ever intend on needing a home defense gun I simply set my Stag Model 3G in the corner. I guess I'll deal with the legal crap of using a competition gun in a gun fight when/if it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 it seems to me that this whole discussion is just a matter of opinion and/or semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 it seems to me that this whole discussion is just a matter of opinion and/or semantics. Same old crap different forum, right? If we could all agree there would only be one rifle manufacturer. Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now