Open 9mm minor?

[.:DRAGON:.]

Hey guys quick question... What's the deal with shooting an open gun chambered in 9mm minor? I know the scoring is a little different (you pretty much have to hit Alpha every time), but is that it? Is there anything else to worry about besides the points and finding an open gun that actually runs factory 9mm ammunition? Any other notable advantages with shooting major vs minor? Please shed some light for this noob. Thanks in advance.

Also IIRC, this is how it's scored. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A = 5 major or minor

B = 4 major, 3 minor

C = 4 major, 3 minor

D = 2 major, 1 minor

[Hi-Power Jack]

What's the deal with shooting an open gun chambered in 9mm minor? I know the scoring is a little different (you pretty much have to hit Alpha every time), but is that it? Is there anything else to worry about besides the points and finding an open gun that actually runs factory 9mm ammunition?

Mark, that's the only difference between 9mm minor and 9mm major.

Makes it easier to use other types of guns besides STI's (the

preferred type to make 9mm major - but some other types are

also used with a fully supported chamber).

Not an awful lot of advantage to using 9mm minor when 9mm major

is so easy? Why are you thinking of using 9mm minor?

Jack

[gng4life]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. No other advantages except what Jack listed and you don't have to reload or find Major ammo. So, if you hit all Alphas, go for it. If you are like the rest of us mere mortals, go with Major in a supported platform.

[.:DRAGON:.]

What's the deal with shooting an open gun chambered in 9mm minor? I know the scoring is a little different (you pretty much have to hit Alpha every time), but is that it? Is there anything else to worry about besides the points and finding an open gun that actually runs factory 9mm ammunition?

Mark, that's the only difference between 9mm minor and 9mm major.

Makes it easier to use other types of guns besides STI's (the

preferred type to make 9mm major - but some other types are

also used with a fully supported chamber).

Not an awful lot of advantage to using 9mm minor when 9mm major

is so easy? Why are you thinking of using 9mm minor?

Jack

Thanks for the quick response Jack. The main reason I ask is that I haven't gotten into reloading yet, so factory 9mm are my best bet right now until I get into reloading.

Open gun shooters I've competed with only shoots major, so I was just wondering what the problem was with shooting minor since nobody seems to shoot it in competitions

(open division).

The scoring system seems forgiving enough to not make a huge difference by shooting 9mm minor vs major. Or am I overlooking something here?

[.:DRAGON:.]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. No other advantages except what Jack listed and you don't have to reload or find Major ammo. So, if you hit all Alphas, go for it. If you are like the rest of us mere mortals, go with Major in a supported platform.

Cool. Thanks. I guess I'll just have to work more on my accuracy by going the 9mm minor route lol

[ChuckS]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. No other advantages except what Jack listed and you don't have to reload or find Major ammo. So, if you hit all Alphas, go for it. If you are like the rest of us mere mortals, go with Major in a supported platform.

Cool. Thanks. I guess I'll just have to work more on my accuracy by going the 9mm minor route lol

If you would like to review previous discussions on minor, type the following into the search box at just below your avatar at the top of the page. (Include the parenthesis):

"minor sucks"

Later,

Chuck

[Jaxshooter]

If you are going to shoot factory 9 mm in an open gun with a comp try to find a load that has a bullet with a complete metal jacket bullet. If you don't the comp will be full of lead. Seller and Belloit sp? makes a 115gr CMJ load that would be a very good factory round for minor 9.

[Hi-Power Jack]

What's the deal with shooting an open gun chambered in 9mm minor?

I didn't want to reload either four years ago when I started shooting

9mm OPEN - so I got a TruBor and it worked pretty well with factory ammo

if the gun was clean and well lubed.

Losing one point per C or D doesn't sound like too much, but that's

a high percentage if you lose 20% of your points because you're not

reloading.

And, when you shoot OPEN, you'll notice (if you haven't already) that

OPEN shooters (good ones, not like me) shoot Very Fast. You really

lose even more by slowing down to shoot all A's, unless you are a very

fast and good shooter ( not like me:(

Get into OPEN, shoot factory ammo, but be looking for someone who

will load Major for you, or think about reloading out in time, and

work up slowly to Major - that's what I did. After shooting factory

for a few months, I found a local semi-professional reloader who was

loading 9mm Major for quite a few shooters in the area - so I started

using his ammo - then I slowly started to reload and worked up from

pf 145 to 155 to 165 and then to 172.

With all the experience here on this Forum, it's not as bad as it

sounds - the pioneers have done all the hard work for us - may as

well take advantage of all the experiments they performed.

Good luck with your OPEN shooting - it is really a BLAST - hard to

go back to shooting my Browning Hi-Power, now:(

Jack

[.:DRAGON:.]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. No other advantages except what Jack listed and you don't have to reload or find Major ammo. So, if you hit all Alphas, go for it. If you are like the rest of us mere mortals, go with Major in a supported platform.

Cool. Thanks. I guess I'll just have to work more on my accuracy by going the 9mm minor route lol

If you would like to review previous discussions on minor, type the following into the search box at just below your avatar at the top of the page. (Include the parenthesis):"minor sucks"Later,Chuck

Thanks for your contribution

If you are going to shoot factory 9 mm in an open gun with a comp try to find a load that has a bullet with a complete metal jacket bullet. If you don't the comp will be full of lead. Seller and Belloit sp? makes a 115gr CMJ load that would be a very good factory round for minor 9.

Cool thanks for the heads up. I'll look into that.

What's the deal with shooting an open gun chambered in 9mm minor?

I didn't want to reload either four years ago when I started shooting9mm OPEN - so I got a TruBor and it worked pretty well with factory ammoif the gun was clean and well lubed.Losing one point per C or D doesn't sound like too much, but that'sa high percentage if you lose 20% of your points because you're notreloading.And, when you shoot OPEN, you'll notice (if you haven't already) thatOPEN shooters (good ones, not like me) shoot Very Fast. You reallylose even more by slowing down to shoot all A's, unless you are a veryfast and good shooter ( not like me:(Get into OPEN, shoot factory ammo, but be looking for someone whowill load Major for you, or think about reloading out in time, andwork up slowly to Major - that's what I did. After shooting factoryfor a few months, I found a local semi-professional reloader who wasloading 9mm Major for quite a few shooters in the area - so I startedusing his ammo - then I slowly started to reload and worked up frompf 145 to 155 to 165 and then to 172. With all the experience here on this Forum, it's not as bad as itsounds - the pioneers have done all the hard work for us - may aswell take advantage of all the experiments they performed.Good luck with your OPEN shooting - it is really a BLAST - hard togo back to shooting my Browning Hi-Power, now:(Jack

Yeah I'm sure I'll start reloading later on, but not anytime soon. I've been asking around to see if there's anybody that sells 9mm major loads locally, but none are willing to risk the blame of a blown gun. Do any of you guys know a good place to buy 9mm major? It doesn't have to be locally (I'm in the Houston area btw). I've been told to check out Atlanta Arms and Ammo, but they don't make them.

And yeah I hear ya when you say going back to regular guns are hard. Ever since I started shooting my open gun, every other pistols that I used to enjoy shooting seems "slow" and not fun to shoot at all lol

[gng4life]

Try Doug's place, DC Ammo...

[gng4life]

Only shows 9 minor, call him and see what he says...

Edited November 24, 2011 by gng4life

[digby7]

I shoot open minor now and before that singlestack minor. Mainly because I do not reload.

If youre not 10-20 points away from 1st in open currently I say just shoot minor and stop worrying about it and use it as a training tool. You should be shooting for 95% of the available points shooting minor and you will likely be a little slower shooting for that but I think it will make you a better shooter. Now when I look at a target, I only look at the A-zone and consider anything outside that a miss

[Hi-Power Jack]

Mark, when I started buying 9mm major, it didn't take

long before I started using enough of it to make it

worth my while to reload my own.

When you're ready - $500 will buy you a complete

Square Deal set - ready to go. That will save you

money after reloading 5,000 rounds - and that doesn't

last long in an OPEN gun:))

Good luck,

Jack

[CocoBolo]

Nothing wrong with 9 minor. I have 3 friends with Steel Masters. One won B Class with minor at a couple of major matches. The scoring is the main handicap, but then again you can run the gun more comfortalby and a bit faster with minor.

Most open guns will run it. I have 4, I can run minor in 3 of them without even a spring change, however, the gun is very sluggish unless I drop down to an 8# spring. Mostly I run 135gr BayouBullets in minor, they run a lot cleaner than FMJ that deposit lead in the comp.

Get set up to reload then open up your choices. A reloader unlike ammo retains most of its value after use, down the road you can always sell it and get most of your money back, especially Dillon equipment. Figure your equipment cost with the "residule value" factored in and it gets way cheaper to reload. Like a gun it makes more sense to get the one you want, rather than one you don't want and trade up 3 times.

Don't rule out 38S for minor, if you are loading, old school guns don't matter, with minor you are mostly benefitting from the Dot, not the compensator.

[Whoops!]

Major also allows the gun to recoil faster (read, dot gets back on target quicker) and in my opinion is also an advantage in that regard when loaded properly. To get the recoil to be as fast with a minor load, you'll have to go to such a light recoil spring that you'll probably often have an issue with the firearm not being completely in battery when shooting while moving and what not.

Some people may say, "I don't shoot fast enough to know as soon as the dot gets back on target anyway." But, this is failed logic in my opinion because the faster the dot is back on target the faster your brain starts interpretting it's back on target and starts wanting to pull the trigger again. You'll always have that same mental delay, but the shorter mechanical delay will allow your overall split time to drop.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Whoops!

[DyNo!]

Even in outlaw multigun, it pays to shoot "stout" Open minor ammunition.

You've got to have gas to work that comp...

(7 grains of HS-6 under a 115 does it for me)

[Chip_E]

Novice chiming in here...

My mantra is "The best is the cheapest in the long-run" and "Buy cheap, pay twice". I think Coco and some others have said that in different ways. I don't always listen to my mantra. When the wife and I started shooting USPSA, we cheap'd out and bought a a Lee Pro 1000 reloading press. Went through a LOT of headaches with it. When we ran a friend's Dillon 650 (with all the bells and whistles) we could feel the difference, and the reduced time.

That said, our Lee press now puts out quality ammo, just not as fast as a 650. We know there's a 650 in our near future, probably as soon as we can find someone to buy the Lee.

The main reasons I hear for not reloading are:

1. I don't want to blow-up the house (or the wife says I will).

If you're safe, and don't light a fire near the gunpowder, you'll be fine. We currently run our press in the far end of the kitchen (no basement, and the garage is full).

2. I don't know how.

Just ask someone from your club, they'll be glad to help you get setup...or take an NRA Reloading class.

3. I don't have the time.

It only takes about an hour to make enough ammo for a match (about 300 to 400 rounds).

4. I'm worried about the kids getting into to it.

Lock it up the same way you do your guns, kitchen knives, pills and poisons. There's even locking soft covers you can put over the press and accessories.

5. I don't have room for a press.

See number 2 above

6. I can't afford it.

Once you do the math, you'll find that you can't afford not to reload.

[CocoBolo]

Major also allows the gun to recoil faster (read, dot gets back on target quicker) and in my opinion is also an advantage in that regard when loaded properly. To get the recoil to be as fast with a minor load, you'll have to go to such a light recoil spring that you'll probably often have an issue with the firearm not being completely in battery when shooting while moving and what not.

Some people may say, "I don't shoot fast enough to know as soon as the dot gets back on target anyway." But, this is failed logic in my opinion because the faster the dot is back on target the faster your brain starts interpretting it's back on target and starts wanting to pull the trigger again. You'll always have that same mental delay, but the shorter mechanical delay will allow your overall split time to drop.

With a 8# spring the cycle speed on my Open Gun is faster than the time it takes the brain to recognize the signal from the eye. Dot movement is a problem, it don't move, much at all, it just sits there on the steel plate. One of the steel matches I shoot has colored steel 3 hits on yellow, 2 on blue, and gongs require 6, so short splits are required, I've won it several times recently, intimidated a GM. http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=779 and it runs like a raped ape on minor or major. A lot of open gunners are running 8# recoil springs in their major guns, long as it runs no problem. I use a heavier bullet 135gr to get a little snap with my pop, this reduces gas volume and negates the slowing effect of the comp. But I think that all discussions of slide speed are irrelevant, when it takes a camera at 400 frames per second to capture the motion, most brains can't do anything 400 times a second, irrelevant, if it feels good it is good.

Try some different bullet weights and ammo brands and find one that gives you the feel you like and shoot the snot out of it.

[gng4life]

Yeah, I'm on the bandwagon with Coco. I have a dedicated Open 9 Minor gun that I use for Steel and for the family to shoot when they want to. They don't like to shoot the other Major Open guns. Working the comp is important but it also depends on what PF you are at. For my Steel Challenge loads, my dot usually never leaves the glass when I'm shooting steel plates. I am using 95 JHP bullets and really, it feels like my .22 almost. Just food for thought, look at the times of the professionals at the Steel Challenge World shoots. Their .22 times are much faster than their Open times so if the loads feel like a rimfire, you will probably do better with them.

I'm not saying that I"m going to start shooting minor in USPSA, just saying that minor probably isn't as bad as most make it out.

[Whoops!]

An 8# spring is probably light enough to get it cycling fast enough. But, in my opinion that's definitely bordering on territory where you may have issues with it not being completely in battery when shooting while moving and doing stuff. As we've established with other discussions and high-speed video, the dot nearly always leaves the glass, the trick is to get the recoil cycle fast enough that you don't notice it leave the glass and it gets back on target.

In my opinion, slide speed is an issue because it's part of getting that recoil cycle fast enough, regardless of if you can see it or not.

[CocoBolo]

Ok, go to this link and click on dowload movie http://www.sashooter...p?g2_itemId=585 Charlie is a C class Open shooting Minor, it is a Local USPSA match. Notice how very slow his gun is cycling and how it keeps choking. His load on this one is 125/gr Zero with 5.2gr of AC, about 135 pf, about like Walmart Ammo, just a bit better bullet.

Here is another one of fat boy Ron shooting minor - Charlie is the RO, I'm shooitng 38SC Minor 5.0gr of WST with 115gr Zero, never bothered to Crono it. (its an old video I am way faster now, albiet a few extra pounds). The gun has a 10# recoil spring in it. Watch how it flips violently, not. The comp is an old school Egw. http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582

Edited November 26, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Jody Waring]

I had a minor PF gun back in the early 90's. It was a P9, with the standard short slide and a two port comp and 2 ports drilled through the comp into the barrel.Tasco PDP3 and single sided mount. I shot that gun for a year and a half at about 135 PF. I faired very well until the shot distance increased. I shot as accurate as most others at the time, but I started losing points, if I dropped as many C's as the others I really fell behind. When I learned to control myself better, I was shooting more A's and moved up in the scores. With the lower IPSC power factor of 160, and making major is super easy I wouldn't bother shooting minor intentionally now, but I do understand the convenience of shooting factory ammo. If you can get your gun tuned to run properly, and you shoot very accurately I don't think you would be at any disadvantage at your given skill level. Some shooters should try shooting minor once in a while forcing themselves to shoot more accurately, there could be some benefit in trying to produce better scores.

[Sarge]

My gun has a 9# spring in it and it won't even eject my minor ammo. PF 134 with 124's.

[CocoBolo]

My gun has a 9# spring in it and it won't even eject my minor ammo. PF 134 with 124's.

My new gun with a 9# and minor won't even cock the hammer. But minor runs fine in my other 3 guns, even with at 10# but runs best with an 8#, to say open guns are all different is an understatement.

In the video Charlie is running a light recoil master.

[Whoops!]

I don't quite understand, it seems as though in one post you say slide speed doesn't matter and then you say it does. I agree with the ones that say it does, lol.

Also, my main question to those using a 9# spring while being unable to eject minor ammo is if a recoil master or similar sub spring system is in the setup.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Whoops!