How to check for a Squib.

[schoonie]

What's the accepted method?

[uscbigdawg]

Here's one idea (that actually works...go figure):

- Poof

- Drop the mag and lock the slide back

- Look down the back/under the slide through the ejector slot/frame rail

Daylight = No squib

Darkness = Squib

Rich

[BDH]

After seeing everything 'appears' clear, dropping a squib rod down the muzzle and seeing it drop all the way through the chamber, sure makes me at least feel better...

[Flexmoney]

So...what should a shooter do during a stage if they suspect they have fired a squib?

[Tman33_99]

So...what should a shooter do during a stage if they suspect they have fired a squib?

Rule 5.7 which has many sections comes into play. It basically says the competitor may attempt to correct and continue as long as it is down safely with the muzzle downrange, and w/o tools.

A squib however requires tools to fix, and continuing would be dangerous. The range officer should be yelling STOP immediateLY, but if the RO misses it, the competitor should stop themselves, turn to the RO and say "SQUIB". I believe any RO at that point would say "STOP" and check. If there is a bullet in the barrel, score and apply misses, and FTE penalties. If not, you get a reshoot. Safety always comes first.

If a competor wants to try to use this to get a reshoot w/o really having a squib instance then rule 10.4 (14th ed, 10.6 15th ed) would come into play for Unsportsmanlike Conduct and a match DQ issued.

[BDH]

Flex, I had a really crafty response worked out on this question, but since both you and Jen sat through Troy's class last weekend, I figured I would let YOU answer this one. Just trying to help out...

[PhilTerry]

I believe that if the shooter stops himself and it is not a squib then FTEs and miss penalties apply. The reasoning being that a shooter "could" use the excuse of "I thought I had a squib" to stop if a stage starts going really badly.

[shred]

This is why you look at the RO and say "I think I had a squib. Would you like me to continue firing?"

If the RO knows you're faking it, they won't stop you.

[ErikW]

Lock it open and point the muzzle at the sky (or a light) downrange then look in the chamber. You should, despite the angle, be able to see a little rifling or light shining through to the chamber.

[Flexmoney]

Reshoot?

[Skywalker]

If there is a bullet in the barrel, score and apply misses, and FTE penalties.  If not, you get a reshoot.  Safety always comes first.

I swear I can hear some groaning empire forces incoming...

[Hobbes]

Reshoot?   

I believe that a shooter is given a reshoot if the RO has stopped the shooter for an unsafe weapon (bullet lodged in barrel) when in fact the shooter had a safe weapon (no bullet lodged in barrel) .

[Skywalker]

In the case a RO stops the competitor, assuming an unsafe gun (squib) and it turns out the RO is wrong, rule 5.7.6 and 5.7.6.2 will apply:

5.7.6 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

...

5.7.6.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage.

But in Tman's example, the competitor stops by himself, and if the RO doesn't stop him/her the above rules don't apply: no reshoot.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I intentionally held back on this to see how it panned out. There are only two ways a competitor stops when a squib load is suspected:

1) The RO yells "Stop". If this occurs and a squib is found, then the competitor's attempt at the COF is over, and the COF is scored on a WYSIWYG basis, including misses and FTE penalties where applicable. If no squib is found, the competitor gets a reshoot.

2) The competitor stops of his own accord. If he safely checks his barrel and discovers the barrel was clear, he can proceed with his attempt at the COF, but of course the meter has been running, so it costs him some time. If the competitor discovers he does have a squib, his attempt at the COF ends, because he cannot use tools to clear his gun, which I'm presuming is the only way to safely clear his barrel. If he stops, the COF is also scored on a WYSIWYG basis, including misses and FTE penalties where applicable. In either case, no reshoot.

Of course you might come across an absolute moron competitor who thinks he can clear his barrel by firing another round(s). In such an event, hopefully the RO has his wits about him, in which case (1) above will apply. If the RO is actually just a Timer Holder, then hopefully the competitor will quit his foolishness before his gun self-destructs.

And, as my learned Jedi pal stated, Section 5.7 of the rulebook is the reference, but Section 10.5 may also apply if we're talking about a moron

[Skywalker]

Rulebook issues cleared, back on track on how a competitor can (safely) check for a squib.

Here's one idea (that actually works...go figure):

- Poof

- Drop the mag and lock the slide back

- Look down the back/under the slide through the ejector slot/frame rail

Daylight = No squib

Darkness = Squib

Rich

Rich,

maybe I didn't get the whole actions sequence correctly, but my guess is that if you have the slide held back, there will be light in front of the breechface, between breechface and chamber, thus you'll see some light even if the barrel is obstructed (by a squib).

I guess it might work with the slide fully forward on a gun that has some play between slide and ejector, but I've never tryied it.

My (short) experience with squibs in .40" and .45" is that no matter what bullet I was shooting (lead, copper plated) the SP primer had not enough force to send it past the initial rifling, thus chambering a fresh round (after a poof and spent brass being ejected) was impossible.

[Skywalker]

If the competitor discovers he does have a squib, his attempt at the COF ends, because he cannot use tools to clear his gun, which I'm presuming is the only way to safely clear his barrel.

Vince, how would you treat/consider the following?

A competitor, suspecting a squib, unloads, locks the slide back, manually chambers a round with reduced powder load, no bullet, sealed with wax, and proceeds to shoot out the squib, then reloads and resumes shooting?

Is this blank to be considered a tool, according to rule 5.7.1, or is it legal (i.e. a cartridge)?

[Garfield]

In either case, no reshoot.

So the often heard advice to never stop shooting unless stopped by the RO applies here too . In either case, a shooter with a high sense of safety gets punished, whereas a dumber shooter could get rewarded with a reshoot .

I understand the rules and will uphold them, but it might be an idea to give this some thought ?

[BDH]

While I like the suggestions of checking for light, let me explain why I said I would feel better dropping a squib round through the barrel.

2000 Ohio State Championship...

One of my squad mates shooting an Open gun running through a stage blazing away. He was all the way downrange when he pulled the trigger on his last target. Everyone in the squad kind of looked at each other and the comment made was 'that didn't sound good'.

The RO clears him (as best he could), so we go down to see what happened. Sure enough he blew the hell out of his gun, blew the C-more 10 yards away, bent the slide (couldn't move it), nasty brass in the hands, etc. I asked him what happened, and his response was:

"The shot before my last sounded kind of funny, but it was a close target and I saw it hit the target, so I knew I did not have a squib. Then I pulled the trigger again, and the gun blew. I can't understand what happened".

Well, he takes the gun to his gunsmith, who beats the slide off the frame. The gunsmith determined that somehow his second last round shed its' jacket in the barrel, so what the shooter saw hit the target was the lead core. Of course the next round couldn't make it through the barrel and gun goes boom.

I realize that this is a really weird one, but that's why if I ever even think I had a squib or something wasn't quite right, a rod is going through the bore (light or no light). The good news on this one is that the shooter was not seriously hurt, and was able to turn a claim in on his Homeowners policy to have the gun repaired.

[Yoda]

In either case, no reshoot.

So the often heard advice to never stop shooting unless stopped by the RO applies here too . In either case, a shooter with a high sense of safety gets punished, whereas a dumber shooter could get rewarded with a reshoot .

Garfield,

I lost your track - let's imagine a slow RO who did not recognize the poof as signal of a possible squib. The shooter with high sense of safety stops himself and can have his gun checked to protect himself from possible injuries and keep his valuable gun in one piece. OTOH the dumber (negligent) shooter keeps on shooting - if the squib is reality the gun will malfunction big time or even selfdestruct, if the round was underpowered but the bullet left the barrel he can just continue shooting. So there is no way he can get an undeserved reshoot.

While I prefer to err on the side of safety and stop a shooter as soon as I think the detonation of a shot sounds like a squib it is imaginable that a second shot after the squib is fired - especially those guys with sub .2 splits Even then the shooter himself will probably notice the difference in recoil and either hesitate or stop firing for a small moment giving the RO the possibility to stop him and prevent further possible dangerous action.

[shred]

While I prefer to err on the side of safety and stop a shooter as soon as I think the detonation of a shot sounds like a squib it is imaginable that a second shot after the squib is fired - especially those guys with sub .2 splits  Even then the shooter himself will probably notice the difference in recoil and either hesitate or stop firing for a small moment giving the RO the possibility to stop him and prevent further possible dangerous action.

AFAIK, It is extremely rare that a squib will cycle the action. First clue is the pop, the second is the jam.

[SmittyFL]

Well, for what it's worth. I'm a fairly experienced shooter and have had only one squib in all my shooting. Had it not been for an experienced RO who was on the ball, I probably would have blown my gun/self up. I was shooting a .38 super open gun and had a squib, I didn't realize it and thought I had run dry. So I ejected the mag and was reloading when the RO stopped me.

I've never missed a squib while ROing. But I guess when you're in the heat of battle during a stage you don't notice it as much. Especially having never had one before. Luckily it was mid way through a stage with some steel that I had make-ups on, so it was conceivable that I had run dry. If it had been earlier in the stage, I probably would have thought I had a jam and racked and rolled maybe not giving the RO time to stop me.

[Vince Pinto]

Is this blank to be considered a tool, according to rule 5.7.1, or is it legal (i.e. a cartridge)?

No, I don't consider a "blank round" to be a tool. Having said that, are you telling me we actually have competitors out there who, rather than be extremely careful when making bullets in the first place, they carry a magic squib-clearing round with them during a COF?

If so, BDH, move over - I'm checking myself into the IPSC Centre for Mentally Battered ROs .........

Sounds like the time when Billy-Bob Clampett asked me if he could stab targets if he ran out of bullets during a COF, because that's what he'd have to do in a real life encounter. And, yes, he was serious. And, yes, I begged him to take up Ten Pin Bowling. Or go clean out the cee-ment pond.

In either case, a shooter with a high sense of safety gets punished, whereas a dumber shooter could get rewarded with a reshoot. I understand the rules and will uphold them, but it might be an idea to give this some thought ?

If you can draft a rule to show us a better way of dealing with such incidents, including how an RO can accurately assess a competitor's intent, I'm listening.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

I used to carry a spare blank (the kind I described above) in my front pocket during matches until I was told (by NROI Italy president) it was not allowed, because it was considered unsafe ammunition. Of course I disputed this call a lot verbally, but stopped that practice to comply.

I'm happy to know that what I was doing was not against the rules.

I agree with you that EVERYBODY should be VERY CAREFUL in reloading bullets, nonetheless it is nice to know that, in the remote possibility a squib sneakes through my match bullets, I will be able not to zero the stage but end it regularly by (safely) shooting the squib out of my gun and resume shooting.

BTW: I was not the only italian competitor to have this habit at that time, and it was not invented by me.

BDH, make room, the hospital is going to get quite crowdy!

[hoser]

Vince,

I used to carry a spare blank (the kind I described above) in my front pocket during matches until I was told (by NROI Italy president) it was not allowed, because it was considered unsafe ammunition.

I agree with you that EVERYBODY should be VERY CAREFUL in reloading bullets, nonetheless it is nice to know that, in the remote possibility a squib sneakes through my match bullets, I will be able not to zero the stage but end it regularly by (safely) shooting the squib out of my gun and resume shooting. 

Luca,

What happens when the RM insists that you take your squib clearing load to chrono for a power factor check on those rounds? Ruh Roh, Rorge!

I have never heard of being able to "safely shoot" a squib round out of the barrel. Can this really be done?

Arnie

[uscbigdawg]

Skywalker,

Incorrect on the light coming through the ejection port. Basically, it's the same thing that Erik suggested higher up in the post. You will see a lot of light if there is no bullet. This is definitely an on the clock solution to the problem. The preference obviously being stopped by the RO and using a rod. However, sometimes (through no fault of their own) just don't catch it and the shooter has to understand how to think quickly and diagnos the problem.

Rich

P.S. It has nothing to do with a poorly fit gun. My open gun will do .5" at 50 yards no problem.