Improbable time...

[Ron Ankeny]

What does the stat person do when a recorded time comes across the table that seems almost impossible? For instance, the big dawgs have a time on a course of fire of 6 seconds on a standard, then an unknown B class shooter's score card comes along with a time of 3.5 seconds? Another example would be a time of 3 seconds on an El Presidente. I looked through the rule book and it appears as though the score stands as recorded.

[TDean]

I don't know if there's much you can do. The thing's been signed by the parties that were officially present....

[Loves2Shoot]

It happend at last year's Infinity Open (stage 1 I think) and at Nationals and they both stood.

[Neil Beverley]

Please see below:

9.10.2 If, in the opinion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4).

[BDH]

Ron, the current 14th ed. rulebook seems a little vague on this (unless someone wants to help me out here ). However, the 15th ed. somewhat clarifies this issue....

9.10.1 (15th ed) Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor's attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

9.10.2 (15th ed) If, in the opinion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4).

9.7.4 (15th ed) A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and the the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an aribitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

Okay, so in your example, I would answer as follows....

If the scoresheet showed up in Stats that appeared unrealistic, it appears that Stats has to accept that time under 9.7.4. However, once they post the results of 3 seconds on El Prez, someone is surely going to file a 3rd Party Appeal and this will go to ARB. At that point, it seems likely that the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage under 9.10.2.

Of course the flip side (and probably your real question) is....... if it shows up in Stats, and no shooter challenges it, does it stand? It sure appears to.....

[Flexmoney]

I agree.

Then, what happens if the shooter can't reshoot? They get a Zero?

[Loves2Shoot]

So, as a competitor, you see someone's score beat the "real" super squad by 15% how would you even start to arbitrate that? Do you plop down your $100 and say I don't think he could have beaten EVERY one of the best shooters in the WORLD by 15%?

[Jim Norman]

I think it was at the nationals two years ago that David S shot a remarkable time on a course of fire. When presented with the sheet, he demanded a reshoot, he claimed that the last shot or shots had to have been missed as there was no way he shot it that fast. That is class.

Jim Norman

[BDH]

I agree.

Then, what happens if the shooter can't reshoot?  They get a Zero?

I can't wait until Troy asks YOU all the hard questions this weekend, and I can just sit back and smile.... In fact, maybe I can prep him Friday night...

9.7.6 In the event that a re-shoot is not possible or permissible for any reason, the following actions shall prevail:

9.7.6.1 If the time is missing, the competitor shall receive a zero score for the course of fire.

Since the time was deemed to be unrealistic, that tells me that there was no time (or essentially, it is missing). Unfortunately, it seems that the score would be zero....

So, as a competitor, you see someone's score beat the "real" super squad by 15% how would you even start to arbitrate that? Do you plop down your $100 and say I don't think he could have beaten EVERY one of the best shooters in the WORLD by 15%?

Yup.... 11.7.1 (14th and 15th ed)

When presented with the sheet, he demanded a reshoot, he claimed that the last shot or shots had to have been missed as there was no way he shot it that fast. That is class.

We had a similar thing with Max Michel, Jr. a couple of years ago where he refused to sign his scoresheet because he knew it did not accurately reflect his attempt at the COF. They just don't get any better than that!!!

[Flexmoney]

Sorry BDH...that last one was mostly rhetorical.

That does seem like that natural progression (thanks for quoting the applicable rules).

[BDH]

Sorry BDH...that last one was mostly rhetorical. 

No apologizing at this point!! I am going to prep Troy and Gary on Friday night, and just watch the show on Saturday!!!

JUST KIDDING! All good discussion, and I will say this...... you guys might be able to give me an even bigger headache that what I might face at the Orals some day.... Also, there are so many experienced people here that I am continually learning (just like my bouncing plates post)....

[Flexmoney]

That reminds me...I need to design my "heads-down" target stage for Gary.

[Ron Ankeny]

Thanks guys. I missed the part about a third party going to the arbitration committee. This actually happened to a friend of mine last year and man was he miffed when he blew the reshoot.

I also asked because I think I might have misread the timer or some other boneheaded stunt on the first string of this month's on-line match.

[j1b]

You know we should be cautious about what is considered a realistic time. Because noone has done it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Is a sub 3 second el pres in our future? Doubtful, but so was a sub 4 second el pres 10 years ago. If someone posted a 2.95 el pres I would be inclined to say - I don't think so - but I can see how that would have been the case years and years ago when it could have been completely legit.

I remember a nationals when the super squad had shot through a stage and it was getting near the end - nearly everyone had posted between a 14 to 15 second run. Nothing gained, nothing lost. Then Jo Jo got up and smoked it in 12 seconds. Is it fair to say that Jo Jo's time was unrealistic because none of the other big dogs could get there? Probably not. We all saw him shoot the stage - we all knew it was real no matter how improbable it looked on paper.

I think about all the people coming up in the sport today - where they may be an A shooter, or classed that way, but the skill and desire to improve has pushed them to go further. They go to a big match and they hang it all out - and they smoke a stage. Better than anybody. Is it inrealistic? No. Is it great match management? I guess that depends on who won

You know, the game changes. That sub 3 el pres? I can't do it today. But ask me to write it down on paper - and it is out there.

JB

[mactiger]

It happend at last year's Infinity Open (stage 1 I think) and at Nationals and they both stood.

I know of two instances from last year's FGN where the time didn't seem realistic. One competitor insisted on reshooting the stage because he knew he didn't do it in that time. (He shot it in a good time on the reshoot, but not close to the first one.) The other let it stand, and nobody contested it officially.

Troy.

[Jake Di Vita]

How can someone "know" they didn't shoot it in that time....Obviously if you shot a 30 rounds field course in 2 seconds, something is wrong. But in most situations, especially in my case, I have absolutely no clue what I shot a stage in after I'm done with it. In most cases, it is too much speculation...which is the only problem I have with it.

[shred]

My guess for the pros would be that they know from years of practice, exactly what sort of splits and transitions they (and each other) can do. You and I can only make educated guesses.

There was a post on the IPSC list back when it had useful information, from somebody that RO-ed the Super Squad on a smallish stage at an Area match. Supposedly Todd was able to predict the other shooter's times before they shot to within a tenth or two every time.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Neil correctly quoted Rule 9.10.2 concerning how an unrealistic time can be handled, but there's no way the competitor can be given a zero for the stage. Rule 9.10.1 does not apply (sorry BDH), because that rule deals with a faulty timer (e.g. no time recorded).

If Arbitration deems that a time is unrealistic, the competitor must be given an opportunity to reshoot the COF because Rule 9.10.2 states "will be required to reshoot". Note that Rule 9.7.6.1 does not apply, because the time was not missing - it was merely deemed to be unrealistic. Of course (playing the Devil's Advocate) if a reshoot is simply not possible (e.g. the stage caught fire), then the original (unrealistic) time must stand, because you don't penalise a competitor if a timer (or an RO) fails to operate properly.

As a bit of history, it was an incident at WSXIII in South Africa 2002 which brought about these rules. On one stage, a B Grade competitor in Standard Division had similar points to the top competitors in Open Division, but his time was something like 30% faster. To cut a long story short the subject competitor, being a good sportsman, agreed to reshoot the COF when asked, and everybody was happy.

I forget the time he recorded during the reshoot, but I was definitely realistic.

[Ron Ankeny]

Jake:

How can a person know their time is not realistic? I once shot a 18 round field course, shooting on the move, in a sea of no shoots, along a 20 yard long fault line in just over 4 seconds. That's obviously not very realistic.

[Jake Di Vita]

Ron,

Yes, but what if the top time was say 12 seconds and you shot it in 10?

It is a much better time, and still in the realm of possibility.

[Vince Pinto]

Jake,

That's why we let Arbitration consider the matter if an appeal is submitted. There's no fixed rule on how to determine whether a time is realistic or not. Obviously each case must be considered on it's own merits, and that's why the Three Wise Men get paid the big bucks

[Neil Beverley]

A number of you have discussed an appeal brought by a third party and about somebody coughing up the appropriate money but please note 11.4.1 below which provides for the RM to invoke an arbitration for no fee and he could do this if he also felt the time was incorrectl.

He can't take the decision by himself but he can employ good men and true to come to a committee decision as per the rule book.

11.4.1 Amount – For Level III or higher matches, the appeal fee to enable an appellant to appeal to arbitration will be US$100.00 or the equivalent of the maximum individual match entry fee (whichever is lower), in local currency. The appeal fee for other matches may be set by the Match Organizers, but must not exceed US$100 or equivalent in local currency. An appeal brought by the Range Master in respect of a match issue will not incur a fee.

[Detlef]

Vince may be too young to remember but there is more history to this than WS13. At the European Champs 1995 (I think...) there was a similar incident, and the competitor did NOT agree to reshoot. These things have come up occasionally, and it's a good thing that we now have a process to deal with them.

--Detlef

[Bucky]

At my very firt "big" match, I shot a stage in 20.?? seconds. The RO said, that couldn't have been my score because I was on C class Open at the time and a couple Ms had shot it in 21.??. He also said that the number of shots on the timer didn't match what I shot. Well, I know why that was. When I ran to the last position, he didn't get there when I started shooting, but he was there when I finished. Hence, I am sure he was there to pick up my last shot. (Remember, these were the days of 175 major). Anyway, being a newbie I didn't argure and took the reshoot. my second run was 24.??. The difference, the first time through I nailed everything. The second run I took extra shots at the steel and had to do an extra reload (I was shooting a single stack.) Seems my first run was realistic after all. This reshoot cost me a gun off the prize table.

Moral of the story, you need to be REALLY sure the time is not real, not just because Joe Master didn't shoot it as fast.

[BDH]

Vince,

So to summarize my learnings from this exercise......

1) if a scoresheet shows up in Stats with an unrealistic time, and no one challenges it (not 3rd party, not the shooter, not the RM (although I would think that Stats would bring it to the RM's attention, and then the RM would handle it)), then the time stands... (Ron's original question)

2) if a time is unrealistic, either a 3rd party ARB can be filed, OR someone brings it to the RM's attention and he files it (thanks Neil)...

Can the RM make the actual call on this, or does it always HAVE to go before ARB? It sounds like it has to go before ARB, but in a couple of examples here, the 'shooter' agreed the time was not correct and agreed to reshoot.... On Jake's question, my understanding would be that if a shooter says his time is unrealistic and wants to re-shoot, then I need to call the RM, and the RM launches this before ARB, and THEY decide if he can re-shoot. Is that correct?

This really is great stuff and shows me how much I have to learn. Thanks for trying to keep me straight Vince!