I have an issue and I need help and advice, please read.

[joebob]

I have an issue and I need help and advice, please read.

I would like to start out by saying I have bought and sold many items on this forum and other online firearm forums and I have never had an issue of any kind. Im going to stat just the facts and keep my own bias out. Im hoping that another member has been in a similar situation or could offer some advice about how to proceed with being fair to both parties involved. I also want to make this incident public to our community as I in no way am trying to be unfair, unreasonable, or cheat anyone in anyway.

The Story:

As many of you may have seen I had my STI edge up for sale in the classifieds. I had lots of good offers (thanks all who showed interest)but I was holding out for a number because it was a nice package and I wasnt in a hurry. I got contacted by someone that they would pay the asking price so we proceeded with the sale. They sent me a money order and I sent them the gun and 4 tuned mags. When the gun left my possession I had just cleaned and lubed it and it was in perfect working condition. I also disassemble the mags and lubed them and they were obviously used but still in great shape.

The gun showed up at the buyers FFL last Friday and they picked it and sent me a text saying they were very happy with the gun and they loved it. So at this point we are both happy and everything was great, but here comes the not so fun part.

I got a text I think Saturday stating that the barrel link had broke, and they were wondering if I had any issues with anything like that in the past. I said no I hadnt but I had mentioned in the ad that the slide stop had broken and that STI had replaced it. At this point they told me that they didnt think I was being shady as I was trying the best I could to offer suggestion and I really did feel bad about the whole situation so far.

Then Monday I got another text saying that they had a gunsmith look at the gun and that the barrel had been compromisedand that it had been causing wear on the magazines long before she had gotten them. When they sent me pictures of the magazines the wear they were referring to was from the barrel slamming into magazine after the link had broke. I knew there shouldnt have been that mark on all the mags and when we talked today I was told it was on two of the mags because they inserted another mag after the link initially broke and another tube got damaged during the second attempt to fire the gun after the link broke.

At this point in the situation the buyer has asked that I refund the money they paid for the gun. Im hoping that maybe some other member can help to clarify the situation and offer some advice as of how to go forward from here. I can completely understand their situation but Im in a little bit of a situation myself and I dont want to get completely screwed in this situation either. I have tried to get a hold of STI to see if they will fix it seeing that it is a completely stock gun but I havent got a hold of the warranty department yet, when I do I will post what they say.

P.S. I will post the pics of the damage when I get home but I sent them to a buddy and he believes that the barrel link was too short and was taking too much pressure and that in finally broke due to the added stress. The gun only has about 2500 (give or take) rnds through it.

Edited October 5, 2011 by joebob

[Bear23]

How old is the gun? Is a stock STI edge or custom build?

I would first call STI and see if they can fix it. Either way, get the gun back and then resell it. Barrel links break, more so if the barrel was not fit properly from the factory.

Links are a part i change out every couple of years just be on the safe side.

[ajg308]

I have a hard time with people that are accusatory right off the bat. I would tell them to contact STI directly, especially if you knew it to be in good condition. Who knows what they did to it once they got it.

[GuyC]

How old is the gun? Is a stock STI edge or custom build?

I would first call STI and see if they can fix it. Either way, get the gun back and then resell it. Barrel links break, more so if the barrel was not fit properly from the factory.

Links are a part i change out every couple of years just be on the safe side.

I happen yo know enough about this situation because I know him personally to answer your questions.

It is a stock edge very lightly used.

He called STI and said they would fix it, as long as it was not shooter error like a double charge

[ima45dv8]

So from what you're saying here, they received the gun on Friday, shot it on Saturday, it broke, (I can only imagine how disappointed I would under those circumstances) and they want their money back.

Since you asked for advice, yes, I would return the money and see about having it repaired by STI.

[Singlestack]

A double charge won't just break the barrel link.

If it were me you sold it to and it broke as described, I would be demanding my money back as well, especially since you knew it had already broken one barrel link. I would not for one minute entertain sending it to STI, that's your problem.

[GuyC]

A double charge won't just break the barrel link.

If it were me you sold it to and it broke as described, I would be demanding my money back as well, especially since you knew it had already broken one barrel link. I would not for one minute entertain sending it to STI, that's your problem.

It previously broke a STI slide stop not a barrel link. That was the first barrel link broken in the gun.

[CSEMARTIN]

You mentioned that you've had a slide stop break? And now a link pin broke?

That gun has problems. Do the right thing and give the dude his money back. Then call STI and give 'em hell...........

[Singlestack]

A double charge won't just break the barrel link.

If it were me you sold it to and it broke as described, I would be demanding my money back as well, especially since you knew it had already broken one barrel link. I would not for one minute entertain sending it to STI, that's your problem.

It previously broke a STI slide stop not a barrel link. That was the first barrel link broken in the gun.

Excuse me, I ment slide stop. Either way, something is wrong with that gun.

[Chills1994]

I would like to know who this gunsmith is...

Is it just some dremel jockey with a kitchen table...or does the guy have an actual Bridgeport and a lathe, plus a bunch of jigs and knows how to rum them all?

The word or phrase "the barrel has been compromised" sure seems kinda vague in my book.

What the heck does that mean?

That said...basically, the best resolution to this case is for you to get the gun and mags back, and for you to give the money back. And unfortunately, that kinda leaves you out on the limb...that you have to ASSume that the buyer didn't do anything deliberately, negligently, or unknowingly to eff up your gun.

Then ship the gun off to STI to have them "work" on it.

And by putting "work" in quotation marks I mean for them to actually look at it and work on it, not just give you the run around.

I have heard some things about STI's customer service lately that is starting to make me believe they are becoming too corporate....kinda like how Kimber became. They built a solid reputation on their first or second generation guns, then moved, and a lot of their stuff seems to have turned to poop now.

[Chills1994]

oh yeah, if your mags are permanently boogered up, then in my opinion when you refund the money you should subtract the amount necessary to get all new mag tubes.

[ima45dv8]

oh yeah, if your mags are permanently boogered up, then in my opinion when you refund the money you should subtract the amount necessary to get all new mag tubes.

Really? You advise returning the money because the gun broke, but then want to ding the buyer for the damage it caused?

[Chills1994]

maybe one magazine, I would let the buyer slide by with.

The second magazine....hmmn...errr....

But the third and forth magazines...at what point, as a shooter do you go: "Hmmn...This gun is really effing up. HUH! maybe it isn't the mags, but rather the gun is broken!"

Kinda like that guy on the Blue Collar Comedy Tour: "Here's your sign!"

This isn't meant to be a knock against the shooter/buyer, but I gotta wonder if that person had enough knowledge or experience to be handling and running something that is like a $1,500 plus, plus, limited race gun.

[Flexmoney]

I removed a post here. The only way this can stay is if it remains generic. Get specific about the who's and what's and it will have to go from the forum.

- Admin.

[Flexmoney]

From my perspective...

If I am the seller of that gun, I'd want to get it back and refund the money. I wouldn't want my name associated with a deal that both parties weren't happy with.

[ima45dv8]

maybe one magazine, I would let the buyer slide by with.

The second magazine....hmmn...errr....

But the third and forth magazines...at what point, as a shooter do you go: "Hmmn...This gun is really effing up. HUH! maybe it isn't the mags, but rather the gun is broken!"

Kinda like that guy on the Blue Collar Comedy Tour: "Here's your sign!"

This isn't meant to be a knock against the shooter/buyer, but I gotta wonder if that person had enough knowledge or experience to be handling and running something that is like a $1,500 plus, plus, limited race gun.

It doesn't sound like there was a third or forth magazine damaged:

"...I was told it was on two of the mags because they inserted another mag after the link initially broke and another tube got damaged during the second attempt to fire the gun after the link broke."

I guess I'm just not seeing that as unreasonable. So many failures are magazine related I would have tried a second. I would have stopped if that didn't resolve the issue (sounds like that's what they did).

[Chills1994]

Yeah, if they stopped after the second mag, then I would just "eat" the price of two mag tubes.

Hey, poop happens.

I'm with Flex on this. swap the gun/mags and money back and both parties are gonna have to be happy with that outcome. then the original owner sends the gun down to STI, and hopefully they can resolve the issue(s) then and there.

it's about the best result any of the interested parties could hope for.

If that was the original barrel link that STI put in, then if they really wanted to be nice, then they should "eat" the price of a new barrel and and two new mag tubes. if they wanted to be nice...that is...

I am by no means a smith, but I gotta wonder why the slide stop broke...

and then if the gun ran perfectly fine for 2,500 something rounds, then why did barrel link decide to crap out when it did?

Just curious....

[pjb45]

I had a STI Trojan whose barrel separated. Called STI, sent it in, Chris had it fixed and returned within 10 days. STI backs their products.

You entered the sale in good faith. You disclosed any and all problems you had with the pistol.

The buyer purchased the pistol knowing your disclosures.

I have a friend, a well known gunsmith, build a totally custom gun for a customer. Another gunsmith looked at it and started to point out non-existent problems. The customer wanted his money back. The gunsmith tried his best to make it right. The gun was perfect. The gun would qualify for submission to the Pistolsmith Guild. It just did not like Blazer ammo.

Another customer of this well know gunsmith was told by a completely different gunsmith that his gun was not built correctly. The customer took the gun to Brazos, Bob said there is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with the gun.

The moral of these stories is the credibility of the critical gunsmiths is always suspect. Unless the gunsmith was Don G., Bob L, Derek J or Dan B, (ok EGW, Infinity) their assessment is not worth a hill of beans to me. Yes I know there are many other very very good gunsmiths out there. But I know these guys and respect their opinions & work.

In summary, if you did not try to knowingly defraud the buyer, the buyer assumes all responsibility of the purchase item.

If you feel like it, you may replace the tubes upon receipt on the "bad ones".

[joebob]

Thank you to everyone who responded and for an update I did talk to STI and they said they would fix the gun.

But I would like to add this, it seems like some people want to just take the buyers side by default but I did disclose any and all issue I knew about (which was a broken slide stop only)and I shipped them a gun that ran perfect when it left my possesion. The gun was sold as is and was discounted heavily off what a new gun and 4 tuned mags would cost. There is no way that I could have forseen that a barrel think would break and if I would have I would rather had it happen to me and had it fixed. I guess my point is if you put yourself in my shoes (the seller) how should I potentially get screwed on a deal that I did nothing wrong in and could have done nothing to prevent.

My last point is this and I would like to see what others think and I hope the buyer is reading this thread. If the buyer had the gun for two weeks or two months and the link broke would they still be able to say i did something wrong. gMy point is that guns arent immune from having issue and where is the line drawn that is there problem or my problem. Sence it was only a few rounds its my problem but if they put 1k rnds through it it is all of the sudden there problem. The fact is that I sold them a gun in good faith and there is nothing i could have done besides have powers to see the future that could have prevented this problem. I feel like that if STI is willing to fix the gun, and they are, that I souldnt feel obliagated to refund the money. I may choose to do so like someone said just to make sure I didnt have disgruntled dealings but returning a gun isnt like taking something back to walmart. I'm going to have to have it transfered back to me and pay shipping costs and everything else associated with this and for what, because they dont want to hassle with sending it back to STI. To me thats unreasonable, but thoughts...

Edited October 6, 2011 by joebob

[joebob]

Another thought, this is a what if senario but could very well happen.

STI told me that they would fix gun as long as it wasnt caused by human error like a bad reload (double charge, etc.). So lets say I refund the money, get the gun back, send it to STI and STI tells me the they did something to break the gun and now Im stuck trying to get them to refund me money for their error. I cant be sure of how the gun was handle once it left my possesion. This is another reason I think they should send the gun to STI and if STI fixes it and says they did nothing wrong and they still want there money back then that is a different story. Thoughts on this?

[ajg308]

I'm with pjb45. If you did everything honestly you have zero obligation to the buyer. As is means just that.

[ajg308]

Another thought, this is a what if senario but could very well happen.

STI told me that they would fix gun as long as it wasnt caused by human error like a bad reload (double charge, etc.). So lets say I refund the money, get the gun back, send it to STI and STI tells me the they did something to break the gun and now Im stuck trying to get them to refund me money for their error. I cant be sure of how the gun was handle once it left my possesion. This is another reason I think they should send the gun to STI and if STI fixes it and says they did nothing wrong and they still want there money back then that is a different story. Thoughts on this?

See my original post in this thread. This is why I always sell everything as is, gun related or not. I've been hosed too many times on returns.

[old506]

I think the reasonable thing to do here is, since STI said that they would fix it, the purchasing party should ship it to have it fixed. If STI fixes it, I would offer to pay any and all expense for shipping/etc. If they find that it was user "error" then they are on the hook. At the end of the day they will get a gun that will presumably run and that's what you sold them.

Originally you said that they inspected it and where happy with it when they bought it so to me that is a "handshake". If I were the buyer and I bought it, inspected it and it looked fine and agreed that it is a done deal, then it is a done deal.

[Singlestack]

Taking the buyers side for a moment...

There is no way that I could have forseen that a barrel think would break and if I would have I would rather had it happen to me and had it fixed.

umm... the slide stop broke.

How would you feel if you bought a gun that broke the barrel link in less than 50 rounds? Lets say you never even took it apart and went out to shoot your brand new gun and it broke in less than 50 rounds? You telling me you wouldn't be upset? Are you saying you wouldn't want your money back? Seriously?

As the buyer, I would be looking at the for sale ad. In the ad, you state it broke the slide stop. You knew it should not break and you replaced it without repairing what caused it to break. How is that "in good faith"? Then you claim the 4 mags were in excelent condition. Every pic you posted of them they are turned everytime so you can only see the feed lips on one mag. Is that good faith too? I can see in one of the pics a flat spot on the feed lips on one of them.

I guess my point is if you put yourself in my shoes (the seller) how should I potentially get screwed on a deal that I did nothing wrong in and could have done nothing to prevent

It's not about getting screwed. It's about doing the right thing.

[Chills1994]

as a seller your only protection is "sold as is" or "what you see is what you get".

for a buyer, your only protection is to ask for and agree upon a so many long day inspection period, and of course, that may or may NOT involve being able to shoot it.

A'yup, both you guys could end up being left in the lurch.