fewer shots taken than scored

[ErikW]

Shooter comes to an array of four steel and one paper, fires five shots (I counted) and moves on. Scoring, that array has all four steel down and the required two hits on the IPSC paper.

What should I have done?

[diehli]

Seems to me you'd need timer verification or some proof of wrongdoing to go anywhere with it. Me, I'd just blame my ears.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with 300lb.

If there are 2 holes (that could have been shot with that caliber) in the target and the timer reads at least all shots that were needed for the COF were fired then IMO there's no other option than to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

[ErikW]

Quote some rules, USPSA or IPSC, I don't care.

The timer isn't a tool for shot counting. I'm a better counter than many timers I've encountered. (If ROs can count shots to hand out Virginia Count and Fixed Time penalties, why doesn't it aply here?)

Benefit of the doubt? There's no doubt about the shots fired being insufficient for the score that appeared.

[George]

I have quite a number of times gotten two of something with one shot from a shotgun and just moved on because it didn't register at the time that anything else needed to be done there, all the steel was down after all, wasn't it? This was at large matches in several cases. What is the right call here, when you get a "twofer" on steel and just go with it? This sounds like what Erik is talking about.

My guess is it would be a failure of range equipment and require a re-shoot.

[shred]

I've seen 'magic bullets' take down two 'stacked' steel plates before-- one edge hit, the other with the remains of the bullet. In that case the second plate was in line with the first, so we gave it to the shooter, same as a perf-cutter on a no-shoot-shoot-through.

[Jake Di Vita]

If a COF requires 20 rounds, and there are 20 or more shots on the timer (which is made to register shots fired) how can you say with 100% certainty how many rounds he fired at that array? Maybe he reengaged it from another position? Maybe you just didn't hear it?

I've just spent the last 7 hours working so I'm too tired to look up rules...I'll do that tomorrow.

[Jim Norman]

You only state steel, was it USP, PP or plates? that can make a difference in what happens down range. A plate might fall easily with a bit of splatter. I have seen an edge hit take down two at once.

Since targets are impenatrable, then I would rule Range Equipment Failure. I have to assume that the steel fell on its own, or the wind knocked it over. It happens. If the steel was partially blocked by a shoot, that is a potential shoot through situation and if it was not a perf hit REF.

Jim

[Dani]

If you are completly "sure" that were only 5 shots, and there is no change that a splatter could knock down the steel, it is range equipment failure and reshoot.

The shots on the timer works only for practice, they are useless in a match.

The timer, as the word says it, only works for time.

[diehli]

Did you see where the shots went? Were two shots fired at the paper and three at the four pieces of steel?

I don't see how the burden of proof can be on the shooter. As for rules, I'll let someone else find the negative rules, though you should find the affirmative ones to make your case (I've got my head in different books right now... Kant, Hume, and Descartes ).

[BDH]

I have quite a number of times gotten two of something with one shot from a shotgun and just moved on because it didn't register at the time that anything else needed to be done there, all the steel was down after all, wasn't it? This was at large matches in several cases. What is the right call here, when you get a "twofer" on steel and just go with it? This sounds like what Erik is talking about.

My guess is it would be a failure of range equipment and require a re-shoot.

Two things here.....

First, poor course design to allow it. Second, REF if it happens.

I had something like this at the 3 Gun last year. My shotgun stage had some clay birds up on the rebar posts. One shooter comes through fires one shot and breaks two birds (I wasn't running him, but that is what it looked like from my perspective). I let it go because I wasn't 100% sure, and the RO wasn't sure either.

Later I checked with a couple of other range staff and got answers from 'lucky shot, congratulate him' to 'REF, re-shoot him'. The latter seemed to be the most popular response and came from an RM.

This only happened with one shooter in the entire match, so either he had installed his 'blunderbuss choke tube' OR more likely, the wad hit the other clay....

[Vince Pinto]

What should I have done?

Observed more carefully

Range equipment failure cannot be declared unless you actually see a target failing to work properly or if you actually see a single shot take down two metal targets or if you actually see a metal target fall due to wind action or splatter. The shot timer and your ears have no standing here - your eyes are the only valid judge.

Is it possible a metal target had not been reset? Is it possible a hole in the paper target from a previous competitor was not patched (or a patch blew off due to muzzle blast)? There are many possibilites here but, in any case, you should not order a reshoot unless you (or an assistant RO) actually witness range equipment failure.

Failing that, it's a case of scoring WYSIWYG.

[Flexmoney]

Any chance that a shot from a different position made it's way onto that paper, then the shooter saw a hole in it when they came to that array...so they only fired one on that paper?

As shred mentioned...a partial diameter hit on one steel could go on to hit another steel.

I think the same should certainly apply to shotgun. If the shooter wants to chance using half their shot spread for one piece of steel, and the other half for another...that is part of the game (IMO). I've had that work for me and against me.

The timer: The timer records shots. And, if it and the RO are both working properly, it records each shot.

[shred]

If we don't trust the timer to record intermediate shots, why do we trust it to record the final shot?

I know the RO is sometimes not close to the shooter, but that's not a timer failure.

Btw, CED 6000's are notorious for adding a 0.06 'split' to loud guns. Ask to see the timer if you're at a match and the RO's not looking for it. I've had to point it out a time or two.

[Flexmoney]

Erik,

As to what you should have done...I am with Vince. It sounds like, with the information given, you'd have to score the targets and write down the time.

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Erik,

Like most folks have stated, you cannot use the timer as a means of counting shots. It's for time only. And, like the rulesman Vince stated, unless you saw the single shot take down two plates (or plate left down, etc.) you cannot call prop failure. So, score it and tape it.

Rich

[ivanhu]

Failing that, it's a case of scoring WYSIWYG.

Hmmm,

someone already asked that, and I'd like to ask it again. If the RO is trusted to count the shots on a Virginia scoring stage, then why he isn't trusted to count the shots on a Comstock scoring stage? Also, may the RO use the 9.1.4 rule here? This is the part that might apply: or if there are extra scoring or questionable penalty hits thereon - and since the RO counted five shots, but there are six hits, therefore one of the hits is "extra" - and it is not obvious to the Range Officer which hits were made by the competitor being scored.

[Jake Di Vita]

Can the RO prove that both holes in the target weren't shot by the shooter?

No he can't. For one reason. The RO watches the shooter and the gun, not the targets. Another, the competitor may have re-engaged that array from another location. Third, even the best RO's sometimes make mistakes while counting shots. Fourth, as said earlier, one round does have the capacity of taking down two steel. IMHO, if you cannot PROVE that the shooter engaged the array with only five rounds, you have to score it as is.

[BDH]

I think the same should certainly apply to shotgun. If the shooter wants to chance using half their shot spread for one piece of steel, and the other half for another...that is part of the game (IMO). I've had that work for me and against me.

Kyle, this is a course design issue. The targets should not be set so that you can engage two targets with one shot. Just like you have to watch for shoot thru's etc...

As to what you should have done...I am with Vince.  It sounds like, with the information given, you'd have to score the targets and write down the time.

Hopefully, you meant to say you are with Vince and me! Remember what I said, I was NOT 100% sure so I let it stand. Just clarifying....

[ErikW]

Let's ignore shotguns for the moment and stick to single projectiles, as this was a pistol match. The array was...

USP.......IPSC

PP..USP..USP

No shoot-throughs into this array and nowhere else to engage it but one position.

RO was watching the gun; I would watch the impacts but the array was obscured by the hallway. All I could see was that the shooter was in the only position to shoot this array.

After unloading, the shooter brought up the array and asked if a steel was down. The RO remarked something was wrong at that position. I remarked there were only five shots fired. Scoring it, we found 2 hits of the shooter's caliber on the IPSC target.

It was getting windy and we had steel from another array fall repeatedly. After all was said and done I checked the back USP and it was set very light.

[Loves2Shoot]

It sounds like a piece of steel was already down and the shooter just kept going. As a shooter I never stop unless the RO tells me to, I learned that the hard way (a whole array wasn't taped so I stopped and the RO says, the clock is tickin') If the RO and the score keeper didn't see it, he gets his score. That sounds like the case to me.

[ivanhu]

Can the RO prove that both holes in the target weren't shot by the shooter?

There's no need to prove. All I have to say, the shooter take five shots, there are four metals down and two holes on the paper - and that's six hits. Five shots cannot make six hits - therefore, there's one extra hit, and it's not obvious which one was the extra. And right because the RO watches the shooter and the gun, he can count the shots.

Another, the competitor may have re-engaged that array from another location.

This option is excluded - the targets were visible only from that position.

Third, even the best RO's sometimes make mistakes while counting shots.

Are you going to say that the ROs shouldn't ever apply extra shot penalties on the Virginia scoring stages? If not, then what's the difference?

Fourth, as said earlier, one round does have the capacity of taking down two steel.

But then, as far as I see, that's a range equipment failure. See 4.3.1.5.

IMHO, if you cannot PROVE that the shooter engaged the array with only five rounds, you have to score it as is.

Hmm, I feel this statement a bit extraordinary. The RO has the full power the DQ someone, saying that the finger was in during movement, without the constraint of PROVE, but he has no right to order a reshoot without PROVING that it was only five shots and not six?

[Vince Pinto]

Ivan,

Rule 9.1.4 deals with unrestored targets, and in my earlier post I asked whether it's possibile that a hole from a previous competitor was not patched. Now if there are two holes of different calibres or perhaps different bullet heads (e.g. ball versus wadcutter), then it's a no-brainer and you only award the correct scoring hit. However it's not that simple if both holes look the same.

The key point I'm trying to make is that the RO can only rule on activity (or the lack thereof) witnessed personally by him or his assistant RO, because it would be grossly unfair to all concerned to just guess what happened. The prima facie evidence is always the RO's eyes, except in respect of scoring zones where the hole determines the value of a hit.

Look at the bigger picture. If the RO were to award a reshoot based on a guess, three things could happen. The competitor could get a better score, and this is unfair to other competitors. The competitor could get a lesser score, and this is unfair to him. Worst of all, the competitor might get DQ'd during his reshoot. While the competitor's actions during the reshoot would justify the DQ, we all know that a reshoot is added pressure, and I would feel like a turd if a DQ occurred as a result of me second-guessing my original call.

Bottom line: When a reshoot (or another option) is 100% justified, call it. If in doubt, don't call it and score WYSIWYG.

[ErikW]

<cracking the thread drift whip>

Erik: Ouch! OK, I spun-off the offending posts and started a new topic - "Watch what needs to be watched"

Edited May 18, 2004 by Vince Pinto

[jspruance]

Erik,

I know at our local matches we normally don't paint the steel plates and poppers after each shooter. I was wondering if that is the case here.

It seems like at the big matches where the steel is painted after each shooter this problem wouldn't arise. If five rounds were fired and the paper had two holes and four steel were down one of them should not have a strike mark.

I believe that would indicate equipment failure and require a re-shoot.

JFS.