Paul-the new guy Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I am practicing with a master limited shooter and I have decided that the road to improvement is paved with empty brass.... I had no idea how much an upper level shooter practices... I received a case of bayou bullets on the 18th of August. 2500 of those brigt green puppies and as of the 5th of september I had placed all of them in the berm! In 18 days I shot right around 3100 rounds. I want to be a better shooter but WOW! I thought this hobby was expensive before but now I am convinced! I am not sure I can afford to be a master... How much does the average "A" class or master class shooter practice with live fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Taliani Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Don't forget about dry fire practice too. A good way to get better and save some lead. Plus you can always take a shovel with you to the range to fish them back out of the berm. Who stops at just reusing brass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Shooting lots of ammo is only necessary until you can hit every target (alphas) every time. Once you have acheived this, you could/should switch to low round count drills that work on everything else. Practice all gunhandling in dry fire til draws and reloads just happen on their own. If you're really aware of your strengths and weaknesses, you can accomplish a lot with very few rounds. In my first real practice session in 5 years last week, I ran a 4 rd drill that left me exhausted before I ran out of ammo. (of course it was so hot that my bike vapor-locked on the ride home ) If efficiency of movement is your bugaboo, why would you waste 20 rounds on one rep of the same drill? You could just as easily fire one, move to a new position and fire one... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Well I guess we are doing the right thing then. I would say my weakest point is my accuracy. I can shoot a's all day if I keep my splits slow but as my splits get better my hits decline. At 10 yards .20 splits are all a zone .15 are not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Once of the things that can increase your round count while leaving the cost behind is a .22 conversion unit. 550 rounds of .22 runs about $20. There is a whole lot you can do with a .22 to increase your skill set. I had a Buckmark (used $189 plus $40 for two more mags) that really helped me improve. It worked wonders for my strong and weak hand. Luckily a friend had a .22 plate rack. It is brutal. 4 inch plates at 20 yards is not easy. Now I practice strong, weak, freestyle at 20-25 yards. Your 1.3 second draws become 1.8 second draws but your accuracy improves by leaps and bounds. Pulling shots in either direction maybe ok on paper but the plate wont fall! The .22 plate rack takes no prisoners. I have a TS upper that works with both my Limited and Single Stack guns. I also purchased an additional rail and Cmore so it can work as an Open gun. BTW: BJ Norris rocked at the Ruger World Rimfire then went on to rock the Steel Challenge. Don't discount the lowly .22..... Steve has a couple of great books out. So does Mike Seeklander. Both talk about the value of dry fire practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) I need to get a .22 conversion for sure! I have Mike's book and have been using it to train It was a huge help right away just having some structure to my training. I WISH STEVE ANDERSON'S BOOK WAS AVAILABLE FOR MY KINDLE BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT ALSO :HINT HINT: I am doing a ton of dry fire also and about 1 million draws and re-loads per week ok, maybe not 1,000,000 but a lot. In between all that I am incesently pulling the handle on the Dillon and filling primer tubes and taking brass out of or putting brass into the tumbler.... I am about to come in first in my division and classification at the IDPA world match so I am hoping all of this will have paid off. As far as digging lead from the bearm, I am frugal enough to try that I just wish I had the time. Although, my wife would probably go off the deep end if I bought one more thing for this hobby Edited September 9, 2011 by Paul-the new guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbird1976 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I need to get a .22 conversion for sure! I have Mike's book and have been using it to train It was a huge help right away just having some structure to my training. I WISH STEVE ANDERSON'S BOOK WAS AVAILABLE FOR MY KINDLE BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT ALSO :HINT HINT: I am doing a ton of dry fire also and about 1 million draws and re-loads per week ok, maybe not 1,000,000 but a lot. In between all that I am incesently pulling the handle on the Dillon and filling primer tubes and taking brass out of or putting brass into the tumbler.... I am about to come in first in my division and classification at the IDPA world match so I am hoping all of this will have paid off. As far as digging lead from the bearm, I am frugal enough to try that I just wish I had the time. Although, my wife would probably go off the deep end if I bought one more thing for this hobby Kimber's conversion kit is a good kit. You'll need magazines from Tactical Solutions for it to work with a double stack pistol. I had to modify the feed lips on my magazines to cause the bullet to release early to work with the Kimber upper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstick0000 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 i agree with pjb45, the 22 is an awesome way to go for practice. Even police depts are using them in practice now because of budget restraints. My target transition times got better when I started shooting my 22, which I have setup like my 38sc open gun. ruger 22 with a cmore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 I got an advantage arms .22 kit for my Glock. Much cheaper! It is so light that it feels like a toy but should help with transitions. I need to get one for my 1911 now. I have started shooting that in IDPA and a 2011 in USPSA so training with the Glock probably is not the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Well I guess we are doing the right thing then. I would say my weakest point is my accuracy. I can shoot a's all day if I keep my splits slow but as my splits get better my hits decline. At 10 yards .20 splits are all a zone .15 are not Believe me when I tell you that .15 splits are totally unnecessary - and perhaps even counter-productive - unless you're shooting something like a bill drill that requires a lot of shots on a wide open target with zero movement and zero transitions. Spending valuable ammo chasing the ultimate split time is a mistake a lot of people make. Pretty much everyone would be better off studying their transitions, movement, efficiency, reloads, stage analysis, visualization, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. Edited October 24, 2011 by DonovanM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dravz Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. Interesting. Good to know. I'm assuming there was regular dry-firing in there too? Edited October 25, 2011 by dravz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. I think that there are those of us that have a natural talent that can pick up things easily and are good at them right away. I am not in that group.... I will never be a Vogel or an Enos even if I fired 10,000 rounds a month. I know that I don't have the skills to make GM no matter how hard I train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. I think that there are those of us that have a natural talent that can pick up things easily and are good at them right away. I am not in that group.... I will never be a Vogel or an Enos even if I fired 10,000 rounds a month. I know that I don't have the skills to make GM no matter how hard I train. You may not pick up shooting as naturally as some people do, but with practice and dedication, you can go far in this game. If you practice hard and learn your mental game, you can go far in the shooting sports. It may mean you have to put in more work than someone else, but if you are willing to put in the work (and based on your posts, it sounds like you do have the will to improve) you will reap great rewards. The most important thing is not to restrict your belief that you can be good. Brian or Bob Vogel put the work in to get to their skill level. Keep reading what you are reading and putting in the effort and you will be suprised at how far you can go in our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. Interesting. Good to know. I'm assuming there was regular dry-firing in there too? Oh yeah. Every day, with few exceptions. I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. I think that there are those of us that have a natural talent that can pick up things easily and are good at them right away. I am not in that group.... I will never be a Vogel or an Enos even if I fired 10,000 rounds a month. I know that I don't have the skills to make GM no matter how hard I train. I disagree. Anyone can be that good given the amount of work those two have put into it, combined with smart practice habits and the keen attention they've given to their fundamentals. Now in terms of personal expectations and satisfaction, well that's another argument entirely. If you'd be satisfied as an A or M class shooter, great. But thinking that you'd never be able to attain GM levels of skill no matter how much effort you put into it is just defeatist. Making GM in this sport has never been easier. The amount and quality of training materials available has only been increasing, whether it be books by Brian, Mike Seeklander, or Steve Anderson, this forum and other websites like Ben Stoeger's, or the wealth of incredibly talented instructors out there. I'm very fortunate to have taken a training class from the outfit now known as OpSpec Training early on, over a year ago now. I've tried to make my training reflect what I learned in the class and it's paid off very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvary45 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I just made A class a couple months ago, and in the past year I've put less than 1,000 rounds downrange outside of matches. It doesn't take a whole lot - but if I had more money for ammo and a range membership, I probably would have made Master by now. I think that there are those of us that have a natural talent that can pick up things easily and are good at them right away. I am not in that group.... I will never be a Vogel or an Enos even if I fired 10,000 rounds a month. I know that I don't have the skills to make GM no matter how hard I train. I disagree also, with negative thinking and talk like that it will make it alot harder to progress forward. I dont thing vogel or enos had a natural talent it is probably more dedication and persistance that payed off for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Ok, you convinced me. I am willing to put in the work. The practice I have done the past couple of months has paid off and I have made great progress. I had set a goal to make b class by the first of the year but I have put so much focus on Idpa that I have only shot 2 classifier stages and on one of them my gun malfunctioned. So my new plan is to finish as the first c in the state match :-) does uspsa bump you up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Shooting lots of ammo is only necessary until you can hit every target (alphas) every time. Once you have acheived this, you could/should switch to low round count drills that work on everything else. Practice all gunhandling in dry fire til draws and reloads just happen on their own. If you're really aware of your strengths and weaknesses, you can accomplish a lot with very few rounds. In my first real practice session in 5 years last week, I ran a 4 rd drill that left me exhausted before I ran out of ammo. (of course it was so hot that my bike vapor-locked on the ride home ) If efficiency of movement is your bugaboo, why would you waste 20 rounds on one rep of the same drill? You could just as easily fire one, move to a new position and fire one... SA I've not progressed to the point where I can hit Alpha's every time on every target. I don't know anyone who can or at least does and I've watched some of the best shoot. Nobody hits all A's every time at least not in a match. Lotsa A's, sure, but not all. I've followed threads where really good shooters bemoan all the ammo they fired in practice learning what they needed to know. It's ususally, "Oh, I wish I knew then what I know now!" I submit they didn't learn what they know now until they fired all that ammo. And I personally (at least this is how it seems to work for me) don't believe you can learn this game and do well without firing a lot of ammo. In my humble opinion, aimed shots down range are never a "waste". It may be expensive but it's not wasted effort. I bought a Marvel conversion unit a few months back and have incorporated it into my training, especially on steel. I don't know if I'm saving any money, I'm just adding more .22, not cutting back on the .45. Besides, I like to shoot. Dryfiring in the garage is more like work. Shooting brings back the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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