WSB doesn't state targets must be engaged within a delineated shoo

[Skydiver]

There was a stage setup today that had 3 targets set up 30 feet from a box. The following is the WSB verbatim:

Start Position:

Standing in shooting box, facing uprange, toes of both feet against rear of shooting box, shoulders square with box, and hands on ears or hearing protection. Handgun is loaded and holstered

as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

Stage Procedure:

String 1: Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1-T3 with only two rounds each FREESTYLE, then perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3 with two rounds each STRONG HAND ONLY.

String 2: Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1-T3 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3 with two rounds each WEAK HAND ONLY.

Scoring: Virginia Count, 12 rounds, 60 points

Targets: 3 IPSC

Scored Hits: Best 8/paper

Start-Stop: Audible - Last Shot

Penalties: Per current edition USPSA Practical Shooting Handbook.

Note that the WSB does not state the targets must be be engaged from the box only.

On String 1: The shooter turns, draws, and shoots T1-T3 with two rounds freestyle and charges out of the box while reloading, and then shoots T1-T3 with two rounds each strong hand only about 15 feet away from the target.

On String 2: The shooter turns, draws, and shoots T1-T3 with two rounds freestyle and charges out of the box while reloading, and then shoots T1-T3 with two rounds each weak hand only about 12 feet away from the target.

Should a procedural penalties be applied per shot fired for all the shots fired outside the starting box?

After making your call, now read this spoiler.

See how CM 99-11 is worded differently from CM 03-11. Still the same conclusion? Yes, I was the shooter. And yes, I know that Nik will point out paragraphs 2 and 3 on page 3 in the NCCB because that stage was a classifier. I gladly accept my procedurals.

[EkuJustice]

There is a difference in a start box and shooting box. The shooting box is no different than thefault lines on a regular freestyle COF. I would go a per shot penalty

Edited September 5, 2011 by EkuJustice

[ima45dv8]

There was a stage setup today that had 3 targets set up 30 feet from a box. The following is the WSB verbatim:

Start Position:

Standing in shooting box, facing uprange, toes of both feet against rear of shooting box, shoulders square with box, and hands on ears or hearing protection. Handgun is loaded and holstered

as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

Stage Procedure:

String 1: Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1-T3 with only two rounds each FREESTYLE, then perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3 with two rounds each STRONG HAND ONLY.

String 2: Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1-T3 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3 with two rounds each WEAK HAND ONLY.

Scoring: Virginia Count, 12 rounds, 60 points

Targets: 3 IPSC

Scored Hits: Best 8/paper

Start-Stop: Audible - Last Shot

Penalties: Per current edition USPSA Practical Shooting Handbook.

Note that the WSB does not state the targets must be be engaged from the box only.

On String 1: The shooter turns, draws, and shoots T1-T3 with two rounds freestyle and charges out of the box while reloading, and then shoots T1-T3 with two rounds each strong hand only about 15 feet away from the target.

On String 2: The shooter turns, draws, and shoots T1-T3 with two rounds freestyle and charges out of the box while reloading, and then shoots T1-T3 with two rounds each weak hand only about 12 feet away from the target.

Should a procedural penalties be applied per shot fired for all the shots fired outside the starting box?

After making your call, now read this spoiler.

See how CM 99-11 is worded differently from CM 03-11. Still the same conclusion? Yes, I was the shooter. And yes, I know that Nik will point out paragraphs 2 and 3 on page 3 in the NCCB because that stage was a classifier. I gladly accept my procedurals.

Brilliant deduction.

Did you notice this prior to the beginning of the match?

[Skydiver]

Nope only after a full squad had shot the stage previously.

[Poppa Bear]

Shooting Box . . . . . . .A small shooting area (generally square) formed of

four connected fault lines.

Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire

which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

12 rounds from outside the shooting area = 12 procedurals.

[ihatepickles]

2.2.1.2 - Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1)

10.2.1 - A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting.

I think you did a no-no. Nice try though.

[LPatterson]

Now that is driving a truck through the WSB. I hate myself for this but I would call the RM and ask that what the shooter did be declared a Forbidden Action and have the shooter reshoot the COF. See rule 3.2.6 also the RM should modify the WSB per 3.2.3 & 2.3.1.1a.

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers MAY include mandatory reloads and MAY dictate a shooting position, location or stance.

The rule book provides at least 95% of the answers, the trick is to read it.

[Nik Habicht]

Now that is driving a truck through the WSB.

Unless the stage designer intended for that....

I once designed a speed shoot that way, partnered up with a classifier, to slow a bay down. We also dropped faultline 3-4 yards from the targets, so we wouldn't have to deal with pasters being blown off....

It was an interesting stage to watch people on....

On the freestyle/strong hand string many stayed in the box, on the freestyle/weakhand string more advanced, some at a run, some at a shuffle while reloading....

[open17]

Agree--12 proceedurals. Would have been easy to fix BEFORE the match with "all shots must be fired from within shooting box"

Errors/omissions in the WSB can be such pesky things---anybody catch the oopsie in the WSB?

Scoring: Virginia Count, 12 rounds, 60 points

Targets: 3 IPSC

Scored Hits: Best 8/paper

Start-Stop: Audible - Last Shot

Penalties: Per current edition USPSA Practical Shooting Handbook

Hint---it's a math thing.

[ihatepickles]

Would have been easy to fix BEFORE the match with "all shots must be fired from within shooting box"

No need. The WSB says the starting position is inside the shooting box. Rule 2.2.1.2 says a shooting box defines the limit of a shooting area, including a reference to the penalty rule. Shooting box is further defined in the glossary of the rulebook. This WSB is solid by default, shots must be fired from the shooting box or penalties will be assessed. There's no need to explicitly say "all shots must be fired from within the shooting box", there's only one shooting box in the CoF and you start standing in it.

[open17]

Would have been easy to fix BEFORE the match with "all shots must be fired from within shooting box"

No need. The WSB says the starting position is inside the shooting box. Rule 2.2.1.2 says a shooting box defines the limit of a shooting area, including a reference to the penalty rule. Shooting box is further defined in the glossary of the rulebook. This WSB is solid by default, shots must be fired from the shooting box or penalties will be assessed. There's no need to explicitly say "all shots must be fired from within the shooting box", there's only one shooting box in the CoF and you start standing in it.

I agree--not required, but sometimes a little clarification in the WSB isn't a bad thing, it helps the beginners and

keeps the gamers reined in. The "shoulders square with box" in the WSB isn't required either---that is also defined in the glossary, but having it in the WSB does help clarify the COF.

"Facing Uprange . . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders

parallel to the backstop."

Edited September 5, 2011 by open17

[wide45]

Agree--12 proceedurals. Would have been easy to fix BEFORE the match with "all shots must be fired from within shooting box"

Errors/omissions in the WSB can be such pesky things---anybody catch the oopsie in the WSB?

Scoring: Virginia Count, 12 rounds, 60 points

Targets: 3 IPSC

Scored Hits: Best 8/paper

Start-Stop: Audible - Last Shot

Penalties: Per current edition USPSA Practical Shooting Handbook

Hint---it's a math thing.

12 rounds per string. Stage is 24 rounds 120 points.

Edited September 5, 2011 by wide45

[Skydiver]

Ihatepickles' response regarding 2.2.1 echoes JA's response to my query that I sent in email.

Open17's response does make a good point about the extra words being useful, although not required.

[Skydiver]

See CM 99-56. Does that mean the shooter must remain in the box to shoot T3-T5 because of the fault lines defined by Box A?

The way we shot that classifier a few weeks ago was have shooters charge the barricade after shooting the steel and T1-T2.

[JakeMartens]

See CM 99-56. Does that mean the shooter must remain in the box to shoot T3-T5 because of the fault lines defined by Box A?

The way we shot that classifier a few weeks ago was have shooters charge the barricade after shooting the steel and T1-T2.

no

Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only T1, T2,

PP1 and PP2. Then engage only T3-T5 only through Port B.

[DrawandDuck]

Just curious as to your time/hits (without all the penalties)....I doubt it is even worth the effort in getting 5 yds closer to the targets...I mean it is not like 10 yds is that far anyways.

[Skydiver]

Just curious as to your time/hits (without all the penalties)....I doubt it is even worth the effort in getting 5 yds closer to the targets...I mean it is not like 10 yds is that far anyways.

Scores aren't up yet, but as I recall each string was 3 seconds slower than my normal two handed El Presidente time. (Remember that El Presidente is also doesn't have the no shoot.) Based on my past performance for that same classifier, I felt like that I actually got more A's and shaved off a 1-2 seconds per string because the one handed shooting was easier. I'm not exactly Mr. Accuracy.