Going back on a DQ

[DonovanM]

I was running the timer a lot this weekend, and during one of the stages, a shooter engaged a target and started a reload, but fired a shot single handed, with his strong arm bent further than normal and his weak hand on or heading towards his magazine. It looked like an AD from where I was standing so I told him to stop, ULSC, etc. He then explained to me that he was firing a makeup shot and was aiming at the target. I was looking at the gun, not his eyes, so I couldn't tell if that was true, but the shot didn't go over the berm or too low or anything. So I took his word for it and gave him a reshoot for RO interference.

In the future, I will never want to end someone's day because I thought they did something they didn't, but I also don't want to be talked out of a DQ when it was deserved. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Was it the right call? Should I not take shooters on their word in cases like this? I'm a new RO, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Schutzenmeister]

Hey Donovan!

The rule book is your friend ...

Reloading ...The replenshiment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Based solely on your description, it would appear the shooter had a valid argument that he fired a makeup shot as he was not (quite yet) at the point of "insertion of additional ammunition" into the firearm. A close judgement call to be certain, but unless his finger is inside the trigger guard and/or the gun goes bang WHILE he is inserting the mag, he probably should not be DQ'd. (Other issues are covered under other rules ... over the berm, within 10', etc.)

[Skydiver]

Mike got it right in his post above.

Thanks for picking up the timer this weekend.

It was definitely a challenging match for a new RO:

- a turn and draw 2 second fixed time stage... with a barrel in the way so as RO, you chose either to be on the safe side of the shooter and not see the draw, or be on the danger side and could potentially see a 180 break possibly pointed right at you.

- a fast retreating first half of a stage, with the ideal reload point going from right to left and then a fast charge forward on the second half.

- an unloaded gun start stage with has the shooter traversing both left and right so the RO has to hang back during the initial loading

- and to top it off: large squads

Anyway, you made the best call you could right at the instant of the shot believing it was an AD. As you reviewed the facts, the shot didn't fit the rulebook definition of an AD, and so you did the right thing and offered a reshoot for RO interference.

As RO's, we have to be decisive, but at the same time be open to input as well. Getting that balance right takes practice. This forum is excellent for RO "dry fire" as it lets us think of these scenarios ahead of time.

It gets better with time and experience. Keep picking up the timer. Keep looking through the rule book. If you can find a Level II match to volunteer at, tell the MD that you're a relatively new RO and would like to work with an experienced CRO/RO crew. A lot of mentorship also happens there.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Skydiver

[spanky]

I think you did the right thing.

[Dan Hefta]

You definately did the right thing, right or wrong you were unsure of what exactly happened, so DQing a shooter for something you "think" happened would be in my opinion wrong! Good Job!

[foxriver6]

New RO here too! I think you did the right thing on BOTH decisions and appreciate the post. It will definitley be put in the memory banks and will assist new and more experienced RO's!!! Well Done!

[Gary Johnson]

I was running the timer a lot this weekend, and during one of the stages, a shooter engaged a target and started a reload, but fired a shot single handed, with his strong arm bent further than normal and his weak hand on or heading towards his magazine. It looked like an AD from where I was standing so I told him to stop, ULSC, etc. He then explained to me that he was firing a makeup shot and was aiming at the target. I was looking at the gun, not his eyes, so I couldn't tell if that was true, but the shot didn't go over the berm or too low or anything. So I took his word for it and gave him a reshoot for RO interference.

In the future, I will never want to end someone's day because I thought they did something they didn't, but I also don't want to be talked out of a DQ when it was deserved. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Was it the right call? Should I not take shooters on their word in cases like this? I'm a new RO, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

You reflexively stopped what you thought was an unsafe act and made things right when you were presented with evidence to the contrary. That's not waffling, it's erring on the side of caution. You did it right.

[whitedog]

I hope I'm able to handle it as you did. Good call.

[Joe4d]

Did he drop the mag ?

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

Rule also calls a shot that occurs while unloading, but like others have said you cant issue a dq or procedural by what might have been or what you thought, you have to know. If the guy was unloading and you know he was unloading, and generally you can tell from the reaction if it was a AD or not. You were there you know what you saw.

Saying that, never get in an argument with a shooter or explain yourself without quoting the rule book. Trust yourself and know what you saw. There are shooters that have zero honor and will lie anyway they can to get out of a penalty or DQ, and think they are actually slick for getting over on you. Usually these are the ones that scream the loudest.

[Nik Habicht]

If a shooter scares you, say "Stop."

When the range is clear, think about what you saw, and research the applicable rules/ask the CRO/RM.

Then take the appropriate action.

The experience you'll get from running shooters and working with more knowledgeable and experienced ROs will reduce the number of times you feel the need to say "Stop."'

[Rob Boudrie]

Stick up for you calls when they are right, but don't be afraid to correct yourself when you make a mistake. I never issue a DQ unless I know I am prepared to tell an arbitration committee that I am certain that the DQ offense did, in fact, occur.

If you made the call because you could not look the shooter in the eye and say "I am certain you violated rule ...." you did well. If you are certain the offense occurred but were intimidated into backing down, it's another story. Sounds like the former to me.

[Steven Cline]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Steven Cline

[GMEddie]

A reshoot sounds like the right call

[Skydiver]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

Unlike the other action pistol sport where a reload begins when the shooter starts reaching for the other mag (at least from what I've read on the other forum), what I recall from my RO class was that USPSA's reload begins with the insertion of the mag.

[West Texas Granny]

Mike got it right in his post above.

Thanks for picking up the timer this weekend.

It was definitely a challenging match for a new RO:

- a turn and draw 2 second fixed time stage... with a barrel in the way so as RO, you chose either to be on the safe side of the shooter and not see the draw, or be on the danger side and could potentially see a 180 break possibly pointed right at you.

- a fast retreating first half of a stage, with the ideal reload point going from right to left and then a fast charge forward on the second half.

- an unloaded gun start stage with has the shooter traversing both left and right so the RO has to hang back during the initial loading

- and to top it off: large squads

Anyway, you made the best call you could right at the instant of the shot believing it was an AD. As you reviewed the facts, the shot didn't fit the rulebook definition of an AD, and so you did the right thing and offered a reshoot for RO interference.

As RO's, we have to be decisive, but at the same time be open to input as well. Getting that balance right takes practice. This forum is excellent for RO "dry fire" as it lets us think of these scenarios ahead of time.

It gets better with time and experience. Keep picking up the timer. Keep looking through the rule book. If you can find a Level II match to volunteer at, tell the MD that you're a relatively new RO and would like to work with an experienced CRO/RO crew. A lot of mentorship also happens there.

Explain to me why any stage design that could endanger the RO or anyone else for that matter is allowed.

[Canuck223]

I was running the timer a lot this weekend, and during one of the stages, a shooter engaged a target and started a reload, but fired a shot single handed, with his strong arm bent further than normal and his weak hand on or heading towards his magazine. It looked like an AD from where I was standing so I told him to stop, ULSC, etc. He then explained to me that he was firing a makeup shot and was aiming at the target. I was looking at the gun, not his eyes, so I couldn't tell if that was true, but the shot didn't go over the berm or too low or anything. So I took his word for it and gave him a reshoot for RO interference.

In the future, I will never want to end someone's day because I thought they did something they didn't, but I also don't want to be talked out of a DQ when it was deserved. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Was it the right call? Should I not take shooters on their word in cases like this? I'm a new RO, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

You reflexively stopped what you thought was an unsafe act and made things right when you were presented with evidence to the contrary. That's not waffling, it's erring on the side of caution. You did it right.

Agreed. I get that you would not want to be viewed as an indecisive RO, but being intractible in the face of additional information is far worse.

[Joe4d]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

Unlike the other action pistol sport where a reload begins when the shooter starts reaching for the other mag (at least from what I've read on the other forum), what I recall from my RO class was that USPSA's reload begins with the insertion of the mag.

The rule also says "UNLOAD" Only the shooter and RO know. If you were standing next to the shooter just on the shooters actions and reactions to the shot you should know whether or not the shooter was unloading or shooting at a target.

[rupie]

You made the right call, most of the time Being a RO is straight forward, every once in a while you get some things like this, trust what you see and make sure you keep it safe, don't try and be a gottcha guy, but if you know it was DQ do it.

[Gary Johnson]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

The situation DonovanM describes is that of a competitor who begins a reload, pauses the reload to engage a target, then finishes the reload.

This is the same as a competitor who drops the mag after 'If you are finished...', sees a miss, and makes it up with the round in the chamber.

[Schutzenmeister]

Explain to me why any stage design that could endanger the RO or anyone else for that matter is allowed.

There are rules in place which are designed to prevent/minimize unsafe stage designs ... These can mostly be found in Chapter 2. However, sometimes they are not always followed as closely as they could/should be by all clubs/matches/designers. (I'm not pointing my finger at any particular match or club ... Just making a general observation.)

[Steven Cline]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

The situation DonovanM describes is that of a competitor who begins a reload, pauses the reload to engage a target, then finishes the reload.

This is the same as a competitor who drops the mag after 'If you are finished...', sees a miss, and makes it up with the round in the chamber.

Respectfully, I don't agree that is what Donovan was describing.

He wrote, "..a shooter engaged a target and started a reload, but fired a shot single handed, with his strong arm bent further than normal and his weak hand on or heading towards his magazine. It looked like an AD from where I was standing..."

Based on what he described the shooter didn't make an obvious cessation of the reload process to intentionall fire a shot. (Why anyone would do this makes no sense anyhows, but that's a different bunny trail) The shooter bend his arm, took his weak hand off the gun towards (or on his replentishment mags) and a shot happened... sounds like a 10.4.3 to me.

[Steven Cline]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

Unlike the other action pistol sport where a reload begins when the shooter starts reaching for the other mag (at least from what I've read on the other forum), what I recall from my RO class was that USPSA's reload begins with the insertion of the mag.

The rule also says "UNLOAD" Only the shooter and RO know. If you were standing next to the shooter just on the shooters actions and reactions to the shot you should know whether or not the shooter was unloading or shooting at a target.

I sorta agree; but only because Unloading is not the only thing which invokes 10.4.3.

A shot during Loading or Reloading also earns a DQ. I don't believe Donovan could have supported a DQ under 10.4.3 for a shot during the Load or Unload as he did not describe ammunition being removed from the gun (Unloading) or the insertion of ammunition into the gun (Loading) he described Reloading; the replentishing of ammunition into the gun- that's what you are doing when you bend that arm and reach for the fully loaded mag on your belt.

It's simplier when the shot leaves the range or lands within 10' of the shooter (when no target there).

I think Donovan's initial assessment was correct and the reversal on the word of the shooter which was the mistake.

??? Is this kinda like pornography- hard to describe but you know it when you see it? Just because a word smith can take my description and make it fit someone eles' definition of "art" or an "expose on light and shadow," doesn't mean I wasn't flipping through Hustler magazine.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Gary Johnson]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

The situation DonovanM describes is that of a competitor who begins a reload, pauses the reload to engage a target, then finishes the reload.

This is the same as a competitor who drops the mag after 'If you are finished...', sees a miss, and makes it up with the round in the chamber.

Respectfully, I don't agree that is what Donovan was describing.

He wrote, "..a shooter engaged a target and started a reload, but fired a shot single handed, with his strong arm bent further than normal and his weak hand on or heading towards his magazine. It looked like an AD from where I was standing..."

Based on what he described the shooter didn't make an obvious cessation of the reload process to intentionall fire a shot. (Why anyone would do this makes no sense anyhows, but that's a different bunny trail) The shooter bend his arm, took his weak hand off the gun towards (or on his replentishment mags) and a shot happened... sounds like a 10.4.3 to me.

The original description doesn't contain enough information to make a definitive ruling in either direction. I provided one interpretation that would justify not imposing a match DQ. There are other interpretations that would justify sending the competitor home. The fact that DonovanM did not impose a DQ lends credence to my interpretation but doesn't mean that is what actually happened. The competitor and DonovanM are the folks in the best position to know that. For the rest of us this is an opportunity to explore the grey areas in our definitions of 'loading', 'reloading', and 'unloading',

[West Texas Granny]

Explain to me why any stage design that could endanger the RO or anyone else for that matter is allowed.

There are rules in place which are designed to prevent/minimize unsafe stage designs ... These can mostly be found in Chapter 2. However, sometimes they are not always followed as closely as they could/should be by all clubs/matches/designers. (I'm not pointing my finger at any particular match or club ... Just making a general observation.)

If safety is a consideration then no stage like the one mentioned in the OP should be allowed. Plain and simple. Any club that allows unsafe stages should be shown the door. Designers should ensure that the stages they design are safe beyond doubt. Yea it can be a pain to add additional focus to safety but only one person needs to be injured to mess things up for everyone.

[DonovanM]

eh, I think you got Okey Doked. But, I wasn't there. I'd want to see where the targets were. Were there a target in the direction the gun was pointed, maybe. As you described it, I think it was a DQ under 10.4.3.

Maybe I'm picturing something the shooter didn't actually do.

I'd call it on what I saw, and not on what a shooter's self-serving claim as to what he was doing. He fired a shot during a reload: bent arm, (dropped head a bit?) (no longer sighting?) turned gun away from targets (did he?) and dropped weak hand to mags... thats a reload (and we all know it) and instead of pressing the mag release pops off a round.

A shooter may do some silly things while shooting a stage , but when you do something that looks exactly like a DQ-able event ya ought to get the DQ.

That ought to generate some

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

Sounds like he began to replenish his gun, a reload, and fired a shot...

Unlike the other action pistol sport where a reload begins when the shooter starts reaching for the other mag (at least from what I've read on the other forum), what I recall from my RO class was that USPSA's reload begins with the insertion of the mag.

The rule also says "UNLOAD" Only the shooter and RO know. If you were standing next to the shooter just on the shooters actions and reactions to the shot you should know whether or not the shooter was unloading or shooting at a target.

I sorta agree; but only because Unloading is not the only thing which invokes 10.4.3.

A shot during Loading or Reloading also earns a DQ. I don't believe Donovan could have supported a DQ under 10.4.3 for a shot during the Load or Unload as he did not describe ammunition being removed from the gun (Unloading) or the insertion of ammunition into the gun (Loading) he described Reloading; the replentishing of ammunition into the gun- that's what you are doing when you bend that arm and reach for the fully loaded mag on your belt.

It's simplier when the shot leaves the range or lands within 10' of the shooter (when no target there).

I think Donovan's initial assessment was correct and the reversal on the word of the shooter which was the mistake.

??? Is this kinda like pornography- hard to describe but you know it when you see it? Just because a word smith can take my description and make it fit someone eles' definition of "art" or an "expose on light and shadow," doesn't mean I wasn't flipping through Hustler magazine.

In hindsight, the magazine was still in the gun. The shot didn't occur as it was coming out or as another one was being inserted.

I also just remembered that I did the same exact thing at a match a month ago. Started reaching for another mag and fired a makeup shot single handed. I can see myself bringing the gun back on target in the video though, maybe that's what I missed this weekend.

I can't remember in detail enough of the event to MMQB myself too badly. I think this was a great learning experience and I'm glad the shooter was cool, he was even in my RO class with me. Live and learn!