RO vs Shooter Mindset

[jkmccoy]

Man, for what seems like a fairly simple topic there has been remarkable depth in the discussion...

I won't comment on the problem of L1 classes and who is eligible to teach them, but I will say that I would like to take the class but have never had the chance since there are so few classes offered (OK maybe just a little comment).

I will preface my comments regarding "us vs. them" with the explanation that at most larger matches I am keeping score, not working as an RO...

In this part of the world, at least, the "us vs. them" attitude is very small and is really just a problem with a very small number of RO's and a very small number of shooters. I actually really enjoy the dynamic nature of USPSA/IPSC shooting and the fact that there is often the possibility for "gaming" a stage. I design a fair number of stages for large (state championship level) matches as well as local matches and I love it when a shooter finds a way to shoot the stage that I didn't consider. I consider it a badge of honor when good shooters shoot my stage in different ways. As a shooter, when I approach a stage and I want to shoot it in a manner that is markedly different than the other shooters (and maybe a little gamey) I warn the RO that I am going to... It would eliminate a lot of problems if all shooters did the same.

But, we must apply all the rules consistently! We must apply all the rules at local matches as well as larger matches. If a shooter's approach to a stage is within the rules we must allow it. If it is not within the rules we must disallow it (whether the shooter is a D-class shooter at a local match, or a GM at a national match).

The vast majority of the RO's I work with in this area approach their job with exactly this attitude. I have never encountered an RO who I felt was "out to get me". OTOH I know the rules and when the RO applies the rules correctly I agree with them. There is occasionally a certain amount of trouble with shooters who do not know the rules. It would help us all a LOT if the shooters would all read the rule book before attending a match, even if they don't take an L1 course.

Aw Heck! I'm just preaching to the choir here. I doubt that there is anyone on this forum adding to the "us vs. them" attitude either as a shooter or an RO. We're all setting a good example by enforcing all of the rules correctly when we are RO's and as shooters by following the rules and being polite when they are enforced. Personally I think that is the only way to minimize the conflict.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[kimel]

The lack of trained range staff has got to be hurting us in terms of growth. How many clubs shoot without benefit of a certified RO? Someone just reads the rules (if we are lucky), starts a club and starts holding matches. Last I checked having a certified RO or three in the club was NOT a criteria for affiliation. Should it be? I think it is for IDPA but not for USPSA...hmmmm......

So Bob, John and the good old boys start holding matches and the rules get wiggled this way and that over a few years until the way the match is shot only vaguely resembles a real USPSA match. This hurts "us" in a couple ways: 1) Classifications are earned under loosey goosey rules which may or may not have a real affect on the overall classification of a shooter. "Ah heck Bob...them reloads prove nothing. You got a hi-cap so just let 'er rip". 2) Shooters get used to this and as previously mentioned they go to a big match and find the RO enforcing a set of rules they are not familiar with. All of a sudden the range commands aren't "y'all ready? Okay...here we go. <beep>" and "You done? Okay, put that thang away and let's see how ya done". Shooter gets confused, probably either feels mad or like an jackass (or both) and walks away from the real sport. He then goes back to his old club and tells everyone there what a bunch of a-holes the ROs are, perpetuating the problem and probably discouraging many of those in the club from ever attending a big match. Memberships in USPSA are dropped and another outlaw club is born.

Eight RMIs? Me thinks we are under that number at this point. If I recall correctly from the pics of the corp in Front Site we are closer to six and I think some of them don't travel. Seems like the only folks I see travelling from the schedule are John, Troy, Jay and Arnie. I could be wrong though.

Policing the volunteer force is pretty easy. Look at the feedback coming from the classes. If a CROI starts getting bad feedback it will show quickly and it is time to take remedial action and/or remove that individual from the pool.

I would suggest that all exams from these classes go to a central point at USPSA. All go to the CROI for grading but some small percentage also get copied off to the RMIs for grading. If the scores from the CROI don't agree with those from the RMI then something is amiss and needs to be looked into. Ah heck...why aren't the exams done online?

We need to develop a pool of questions...say 10 questions for each subject NROI wants to address. Then the RO candidate logs on to a website and downloads their customized exam which contains a random selection of questions from the pool. They fill it out and then upload it. Don't have the internet. Fine. Sedro prints out your exam and sends it to you. You can go even more hi-tech than this if you want.

Burnout as mentioned is a huge problem. Troy, Jay, Arnie, John and the rest are a HUGE resource that we need to keep alive and well. They are the core of NROI.

You know...in ham radio there was a similar hue and cry 50 or so years ago. Everyone said that letting fellow hams give exams for entry level licenses would cause the whole regulatory structure of ham radio (which is regulated by the Feds...FCC) to collapse. Well, nothing of the sort happened. Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people were licensed in this manner and ham radio is still with us. To the point where now all testing is done by teams of volunteer examiners.

Want another parallel? The private pilot licensing system. You don't have to rise through the ranks and fly the big iron for the airlines to become an instructor. You have to have the right number of hours and the right training and then you can teach. Testing is still done in a rigorous manner but the instruction is still done by individuals that want to do it.

Okay, there have been problems in NROI in the past. You are going to find this in any organization of any size. The solution is NOT to severely restrict the number of instructors. Quite the opposite. The more good instructors we have the lower the impact a bad instructor can have.

I think the CRO "Super Seminars" are a grand idea and if one is held where I can get to it without crossing two time zones I will plan to be there (after I have my year of RO done of course). I even know a CRO or two that would like to attend these Super Seminars as a brush up.

If we can free up the RMIs from teaching all the Level 1 seminars we can have more Level 2 seminars. If we have more Level 2 seminars we have more CROs. If we have more CROs we might get more more RM candidates. You can follow the logical progression from there to the point where we have more RMIs.

The RMIs can also hold CROI refresher courses now and then following the Super Seminar idea. A CROI might be required to attend one of these every x years (5?).

Has anyone even thought of what will happen when John Amidon retires/resigns/etc? Judging from the pictures it looks to me like the entire cadre of RMIs is about the same age. The current plan is obviously NOT a vision for the future of our sport!!!

My bet is that there is a large corp of dedicated individuals that would jump at the chance to help out. NROI only needs to give them a chance.

[mactiger]

Kimel, Jeff, and Kelly (and you too, Ron ):

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions. I believe we could use more good teachers in our sport. I also have to agree with Ron Ankeny: while I think all new members attending a class within a year would be ideal, it probably "ain't gonna happen", to coin a phrase. I guess I was just wishing out loud. It would be good, though, if the new (and old) members read the rules once in a while. Kimel pretty much sums up the worst of my experiences across the country--people learning the wrong rules at home, then getting "educated" at a larger match. Leaves a bad taste in their mouth, and mine too, frankly.

As for burnout, I haven't burned out yet, and don't feel it coming, but it has happened. At present we have 6 instructors, with two in training. I like teaching level one classes, and wouldn't stop, but I also wouldn't mind training a couple of CROI's to do it, either. That way, we'd be able to teach more level 2 correspondence, mega-seminars, and RM students. I've met a lot of experienced people that I think would make good teachers.

And, we've already developed a sort of evaluation system for instructors and for RO's/CRO's at Nationals that will be useful.

Regarding an online test: not a bad idea, but the NROI coordinator might disagree if she had to grade them all.

I usually offer my classes the option of emailing me requesting the test (it's a Word document). They can then take it and email it back. This works pretty well, and I think I get more people who actually get certified by taking the test this way. Although, you sometimes get anomalies, like the last class I taught in Seattle, where about half the class handed me their completed finals on Sunday morning. I didn't think I'd have that much work to do on Monday, but NO.

Anyway, I was going to post some of this stuff on the instructor's forum, but the USPSA server is down. Rob is working the problem, though, so keep the suggestions coming.

(I also agree that a couple year's military service, or service to the country in some fashion, is a good idea. A little hard work and exposure to the real world never hurt anybody.)

Anyone know how I got that stupid cat posted as my avatar?

Troy

[Neil Beverley]

Guys,

As far as IPSC goes you might like to know that a new committee was created earlier this year to completely review and develop the seminars and how instructors qualify, etc., etc.

I was asked to chair this committee and one of the first people I approached to join me was Arnie who had worked with me on the Shotgun Rules Committee. I am convinced we achieved a great deal during the process. The committee consists of 5 members and includes YODA who is a regular contributor on these forums.

I do not post as frequently as some here but I'm around a lot and unashamedly I'm a great thief of ideas (and problems). They get added to the list.

I'm not embarrassed to admit that I don't know everything but then who does? I'm not embarrassed to ask for help or input from others. I'd be stupid not to draw on the huge wealth of knowledge that exists out there.

What I can tell you is that my brief is to consider anything and everything. I have been told more than once: "there are no sacred cows".

While my primary objective is to deal with IPSC seminars, in reality these form the backbone for most NROIs.

We've already done some intial tidying up of the existing paperwork as a result of the 2004 rule changes but this is only as a holding operation. The "new" work will start in earnest very soon, I'm just trying to clear my decks of a couple of other fairly substantial matters first (non shooting related).

I have already sent a PM to Troy advising him of the the new committee and offerred him a direct line of communication to the committee, either through me or through Arnie. I have an immense respect for his ideas and approach to the whole sport.

The scale of this project, at least in my eyes, is huge. Please don't expect any quick results. If we were to rush this then we would do you all a disservice. However, I also assure you that if I didn't think we could make a significant advancement then I would be the first to chuck the towel in.

Please feel free to email me, PM me or simply post here. I will monitor and consider all relevant postings.

[Barrettone]

Hey Kimel,

You did leave out one VERY ACTIVE RMI in Perry Wilson. He has been doing a TON of instructing this past two years including a level 1 and level 2 for us. I just want to make sure he is recognized for "carrying" NROI with the other people you mentioned.

Jeff

[Barrettone]

Let's see...There's Troy McManus (Louisianna), Arnie Chrisiensen (Minnesota), Jay Worden (Illinois), Perry Wilson (Illinois), John Hurst (Florida), John Amidon (New York), and on deck we have Chuck Schmidt (California), and Gary Stevens (Kentucky). Anybody see a geographical problem here besides me??? Poor 'ol Chucky is all by his lonesome on the west side of the country (about 24 states worth of real estate to cover), and he's a newbie RMI. Either USPSA and the clubs are gonna spend a whole lot for mobilization (as they have been), or they're not gonna get many classes out there. Just an observation, but it sure makes a case for CROI's since the majority of classes requested (80%?) are level 1's. Things could be "localized" in a jiffy with the CROI's. We'll just have to see how it plays.

Jeff

[kimel]

Ah yup...sure did miss Perry. I had this nagging feeling I was missing someone so I checked the USPSA current class list and totally missed Perry. Just looked again and sure enough there he is. Sorry Perry. There used to be list of the NROI Instructors on the old website but I sure can't find it on the new one...or did I just dream that it used to be there?

[mactiger]

I'm not sure there was a list of instructors on the web page--at least not in recent history.

FWIW, it really doesn't cost too much more for me to fly to the West coast than to any other place in the country, providing I have enough lead time to shop flights.

Having an instructor on the West coast does give him the option of having more "local" classes-- or classes he can drive to if he wishes, and not incur airfare costs.

Troy

[kimel]

Yeah...it is kinda crazy when it costs as much to fly from Seattle to NY as it does to fly from Seattle to Las Vegas. But in terms of time I am sure it is easier on the RMIs if they take 1 plane ride for an hour or two rather than the all day marathons to get from coast to coast.

If an RMI can work most/all of Friday, hop a plane after work and be where they need to be for a class. Then teach Saturday and Sunday, and be home in time for dinner Sunday evening the RMI has a better experience and his family isn't as unhappy about his frequent absences. This equals more classes.

I wonder if one were to take certified ROs and plot those on a map of the U.S. how clustered they would be around the RMIs? Also plot on the same map the locations where RO Level 1 and Level 2 courses have been held in the past couple years and what do we see?

And why the heck ISN'T there a page on the USPSA site with the RMIs listed? You guys are the jewels in the NROI crown and you deserve to be acknowledged!

[Barrettone]

Good observations Kimel...I would like to know that info myself. It would go a long way in strategizing how NROI goes about educating the masses in the most cost-effective way. That type of data could prove invaluable in furthering NROI's effectiveness and help structure it in a more user-friendly way. As for recognizing our "crown jewels"...I do not think you could be more right. These guys are the ones who really elevate USPSA in the shooting world, and continue to foster well-educated range staff at the local, area and national level. Now where the hell did I put MV's email address??? We gotta get him on the horn.

Jeff

[mactiger]

Thanks, guys. It would be relatively easy to plot certified members by zip code--I used to have a piece of software from Microsoft (?) that did just that. I think it's a good idea, too. It's simple enough--import zips from a database or spreadsheet and it puts them on the map.

I'll try to find it and see if Kim can give me that information.

And, it is true that a couple or three hours travel time beats the hell out of 5-7 in the case of West coast trips--at least for me. My biggest problem has been getting between New Orleans and Denver and then on to Seattle or Portland--those flights always seem to have some sort of delay, then I miss my connection in Denver. I hate it when that happens.

I usually teach one "local" class right near my home each year, but for the rest, I've been all over--Spokane, Seattle, Portland, Minnesota, Maryland, Texas (but I treat Houston as local, since I drive there), Boulder, Arkansas, you name it.

Strangely enough, I've never taught a class in California, and that's a state with a high number of shooters.

I am holding out for a class in Hawaii, though. But BDH promised me some steaks and stogies next weekend--I guess that will have to do.

Troy

[BDH]

I wonder if one were to take certified ROs and plot those on a map of the U.S. how clustered they would be around the RMIs? Also plot on the same map the locations where RO Level 1 and Level 2 courses have been held in the past couple years and what do we see?

I agree with everyone's comments on this idea, and would love to see how this shakes out. My guess though will be that the clusters are tied more to where the classes are held, than where the RMI's live. Great example is after the Miamisburg, Ohio L2 class this weekend, I'd bet that there will be a spike of around 15 - 18 new CRO's that are from the Tri-State area (IN, KY, OH), and really doesn't have much to do with Troy's home address. Of course, I suppose the real question is are the classes clustered around the RMI's homes? Great question....

My biggest problem has been getting between New Orleans and Denver and then on to Seattle or Portland--those flights always seem to have some sort of delay, then I miss my connection in Denver.  I hate it when that happens. 

Well, seems like when I travel I nearly always have to connect in Atlanta. Still can not figure out why when I only have 30 minutes to make a connection, the inbound flight comes into gate A1, and the outbound flight leaves from Z97. Then if I have 90 minutes between flights, the inbound flight comes into A1, and the outbound leaves from A3. How the hell does that work?

But BDH promised me some steaks and stogies next weekend--I guess that will have to do.

Don't forget the BBQ'd Wabbit, and Roasted Cicada's (supposed to pop up this weekend)....

[Flexmoney]

[quick drift]

It's not this weekend, right? The CRO class is next weekend? I have it as the 22nd & 23rd? I hope it's not this weekend. If so, I have about a day to find somebody to run Circleville's Steel match this Saturday.

[drift off]

[BDH]

[quick drift]

It's not this weekend, right?  The CRO class is next weekend?  I have it as the 22nd & 23rd?  I hope it's not this weekend.  If so, I have about a day to find somebody to run Circleville's Steel match this Saturday.

[drift off]

Kyle, I was saying the Cicada's are supposed to pop up this weekend. You have the L2 class dates correct as the 22nd and 23rd. Sorry for the confusion....

[hoser]

I agree that plotting certified ROs would be interesting. I am pretty sure there will be a disproportionately higher number of ROs in Minnesota. I usually teach at least one local class in MN every year. It is uncommon for a MN USPSA member not to be a certified RO.

And, someone should ask Troy about the class he taught in MN (when he was in Instructor training) and how he walked on water and how one of the female students was less than impressed with Troy's aversion to chilly weather.

Arnie

[Neil Beverley]

And, someone should ask Troy about the class he taught in MN (when he was in Instructor training) and how he walked on water and how one of the female students was less than impressed with Troy's aversion to chilly weather. 

Arnie

Let's cut out the middle man. There is no point in troubling Troy for his distorted view of things. I'm sure you can embellish the story much better for our amusement. Go on. Tell all.

[Ron Ankeny]

If you guys had any idea what it took to get Jay Worden to Wyoming, and how much of a committment those attending the class had to make (meals, travel, time off work, motel rooms, etc.) then you might understand why it is simply ridiculous to even think about requiring a level one class for membership.

Right now, we have two folks in our club desiring to become certified range officers. Casper might have one or two, Jackson might have a couple and maybe another one or two from the Cody area. That geographical region represents an area larger than the entire surface area of many individual states and we still don't have enough guys to make up the minimum for a class.

Instead of talking about requiring a class, you should be working on a way to be responsive to the needs of small clubs and those folks who want to become an RO.

[BigDave]

On the "us vs. them" issue, if indeed there is one (and there likely is, on some level, if this was even brought up for discussion).

People generally don't like to be reminded that rules apply to them. IMObservation, that is one of the tasks of an RO; to observe the shooting and apply the rules as a result. When an RO (the observer) applies a rule, be it the application of a proceedural penalty for not following the stage description or DQ for a 180 violation, the shooter (the being observed) as a natural defense mechanism called "pride" invokes. One way to disarm this is to remain objective. The easiest way to do this is to simply eliminate (while on the range) the words "would, could and should" from your vocabulary. Those words are the precursor to a nasty little thing called an "opinion" and if a competitor see's you handing down a rule disguised as a opionion you're setting yourself up for confrontation. By confrontation, I don't mean physical or verbal, but "RO vs. shooter" rather than "rules vs. shooter". Observations are facts and when you stick to the facts, you're less likely to start a confrontational situation or mindset.

I might get lit up for this, but so be it, but I'll go out on a limb and say that there might likely be some folks with RO or even CRO credentials who no business on the line. Yes, they may have done just fine it the two day course, or acted appropriately under the guidance of an RMI, but outside of that, its a Jeckyl and Hyde act. Now, these folks are likely very few and far between, but as they say "one bad apple spoils the bunch". Just because you know the rules doesn't make you a RO. IMOpinion, an RO is someone who not only knows the rules, but knows how and when they are applied and how to effectively observe and communicate the rules as well.

What I think would be of benifit is to institute a feedback program for RO's, CRO's and RMI's. The feedback would be used to either (1) change behavior in an effort to increase effectiveness or (2) reinforce desireable behavior. This program would have to find a way to be objective, and completely so. Another way is to institute a random audit of RO's. CRO's could audit RO's, and RMI's the CRO's. There would likely have to be an increase of RMI's to do such a thing. If the RMI's were organized geographically and were assigned an equal # of CRO's to observe, and CRO's RO's to observe, that might be one way. Yes, I know this is a big idea and might not be feasible right now, but I do think it could be a step in the right direction.

I understand that there is pretty tight "quality" control regarding who gets to teach what and to whom, but the NROI and USPSA need to take a look if the current system is holding us back. There are some really smart and talented folks in this organization that aren't being utilized.

One last thing. I think it would be great if USPSA instituted a "The Red Book and You" type of program to teach the rules to the membership. Not with the ends of training RO's, but so the general membership has a good grasp of the majority of the rules and how they apply. Part of the problem is that many folks simply don't know the rules or are too afraid to admit as much. Knowledge is a wonderful thing.

My $0.02

[mactiger]

Big Dave, that's the best post I've seen here. If I run into you somewhere, I owe you a couple of cold ones.

NROI has been working on a evaluation or quality control program for range officers, and that's getting close to being a reality.

I really like the "Red Book and you" idea. I'm sure there's a way to make that a reality.

Great thinking.

Troy

[Neil Beverley]

Troy/BigDave/All

There's been some interesting discussion generally on this subject and I thought that I would let you know that I intend to forward the entire discussion to IROA for consideration (I sit on the committee as well as the other hats I wear).

I agree with Troy that BigDave has made some good points and "The Red Book and You" is a good idea (read "The Rule Book and You").

Actually while I note that this is suggested for use with the membership it's not beyond feasibility to produce one for ROs as well. Almost "The Rule Book and Them" . We're part of the way there with the RO's Creed and Vince's Dos and Don'ts but perhaps this could be expanded.

[hoser]

And, someone should ask Troy about the class he taught in MN (when he was in Instructor training) and how he walked on water and how one of the female students was less than impressed with Troy's aversion to chilly weather. 

Arnie

Let's cut out the middle man. There is no point in troubling Troy for his distorted view of things. I'm sure you can embellish the story much better for our amusement. Go on. Tell all.

My good friend Neil,

That would be a thread drift!

Arnie

[Vince Pinto]

Arnie,

Maybe you should start a new thread entitled "Troy's Adventures in Minnesota". I'd be nice to have some blackmail material

[mactiger]

If you guys had any idea what it took to get Jay Worden to Wyoming, and how much of a committment those attending the class had to make (meals, travel, time off work, motel rooms, etc.) then you might understand why it is simply ridiculous to even think about requiring a level one class for membership.

Right now, we have two folks in our club desiring to become certified range officers. Casper might have one or two, Jackson might have a couple and maybe another one or two from the Cody area. That geographical region represents an area larger than the entire surface area of many individual states and we still don't have enough guys to make up the minimum for a class.

Instead of talking about requiring a class, you should be working on a way to be responsive to the needs of small clubs and those folks who want to become an RO.

Ron,

Pleeze, Pleeze forget I said anything about requiring a level one class for membership, OK?

Jeez! Just thinking out loud, dude, honest.

I've been thinking about other ways of teaching level one classes, and the NROI instructors have discussed it quite a bit. I think the CROI idea is a valid one, providing we could get the level of instruction we want to.

I agree with you that it's tough on smaller clubs, especially ones in areas such as yours, where they are spread out. Pretty country, not many people per square mile.

Any suggestions y'all have to make this better would be appreciated.

Troy

[mactiger]

Arnie,

Maybe you should start a new thread entitled "Troy's Adventures in Minnesota". I'd be nice to have some blackmail material

I have just as much on him, Vince.

I thought I was being "Prepared" for the weather--hell, we don't get any sneaux down here, except every decade or so, and then it's usually a little dust, although it does close everything down. Shorts and a t-shirt at Christmas are common.

So, I go to MN in the dead of winter (those people are crazy), to student teach a class, and get thrashed for the amount of clothing I wear. My brother Arnie never even came to my defense --hell, I never see him wearing anything more than a well-worn leather jacket--and I'm freezing my 'nads off.

I walk out to the range for the live fire exercise, the whole class is looking at me, and I distinctly hear a woman named (name deleted to protect the guilty) say, "Candy ass."

Come to think of it, she didn't have anything more than a parka on top of her regular clothes.

I did learn what the "Minnesota start" position was, though. Face downrange, place both hands under the opposite armpit with arms crossed in front of you. RO should be real quick on the commands and timer.

Do you know how hard it is to score targets and then tape them when the tape is frozen, and the snow is blowing straight across the range? Give me the heat and humidity any day.

I did walk on water, though, and even got a bend in my rod (a whole 'nuther story, believe me--and not what you're thinking) going ice fishing. Never did find out what the limit on ice was, but it doesn't fry up too good.

Then, just to add insult to injury, Arnie tells his (then) wife all about it, and this woman who wouldn't say sh*t if she had a mouthful, says, "Pansy ass". Man, I don't get no respect.

Troy

[Ron Ankeny]

There are a couple of solutions that I can see for providing RO classes to the less populated states. The first would be to have a much larger pool of instructors, several in each state and require fewer students to make the minimum class size. Local instructors would dramatically reduce overhead. The down side of course is NROI would be relinquishing a lot of control and there is a very real danger of quality going in the toilet. I could envision instances where "instructors" would sign off on their buddies, cut the class short, get the money and run.

Another option would be distance education. Printed materials enhanced with Web based materials. A performance exam could be administered locally by a pool of test proctors, but once again, quality control could be compromised.

I agree with BigDave that we don't need everyone to be an RO, but guys need to at least read the rulebook. If every new shooter would just spend an hour looking at the little red book, life would be so much easier. Frankly, I think all new shooters should be required to fill out and submit a worksheet or reading guide similar to the recert test before they can receive their initial classification.