Downrange58 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 In no way is this a complaint so please don't read it that way and this might not even be the place to ask this question, so let me know if there is a better place... I love this sport we do and it really doesn't matter much to me that I will never understand the scoring system, but yesterday's results from our match REALLY confused me... How can I beat a guy in our production class and lose to him in the overall? In the five stages we shot, I had 32 more stage points but he had 14 more match points in the overall. And yet in our division, I had 49 more match points than he did .... My percentages for our division were 72.731 and his were 65.227 His overall match percentage was 49.336 and mine was 47.161. On the three longest field stages, I beat him by a total of 72 points. On the two shortest stages he beat me by 39 points. Trying to understand is all part of the fun and regardless, I really enjoyed my day! Any insights appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 This is something our Stats guy puts in the results, "Sometimes the order of finish changes from the 'By Division' report and the 'Combined' report. This is beacuse a different Stage High Hit Factor was used to calculate the stage points." I think it answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderer Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 in a nut shell, your raw score is actually your hit factor, not your percentage or stage point. both points and percentages are a result of scaling from the best hit factor. so you can only use the production division score and percentages as accurate. once you cross with another division your scores again are based on the best hit factor. usually an open shooter so your percentages change dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Right. Your hit factor is your hit factor. But, we grade on a curve. If you were in school, your hit factor would be like how many questions you got right on the test. Then, in school, you might be graded on a curve...based off the highest test score in the classroom. When you switch from looking at your division scores to comparing to the overall... You are now looking at the curve with a bunch more kids...some of them smarter than your regular group. And, some tests (stages) are worth more points than others (weighted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Also, this is why the Division scores (and not the overall) are the official scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thank you guys! I am not saying I understand, but I do think I have seen the beginning of understanding this! Thanks for taking the time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 There are some other threads on this... if you can find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 yours is the perfect example. You beat him on the long (and normally high point) stages and he beat you on the shorter ones. You noted that you beat him by 72 points on the long stages, but that was when you were both getting points based on another production shooter's time which was probably relatively close to your times. When a good open shooter goes at the long stages with only one reload, their time will usually be much better than production shooters reloading 3 or 4 times. Since the overall uses that time for awarding points based on percentages- you and the other guy's times were not so far apart in comparison and so you most likely got WAY less than 72 points more than him. The exact opposite happens on short courses (the open time is much closer to your times) and most likely he still got you by near the same number. Thus the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Essentially for the production results your (and his) points per stage were factored off one set of high hit factors -- those set by the folks who won those stages in Production Division. For the overall, it's likely that competitors shooting in another division, set a higher hit factor, on one or more stages in the match, than the high hit factor set by the production shooter who placed first (in production) on those stages. So now, the calculation starts over fresh. Comparing the results of any individual division against the overall is a little like comparing oranges and tangerines; they may be related, but they're not going to be identical..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycallmeingot Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 good topic. i've been wondering these same things. very helpful. i never understood why they said "these are not the official scores." now i do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 yours is the perfect example. You beat him on the long (and normally high point) stages and he beat you on the shorter ones. You noted that you beat him by 72 points on the long stages, but that was when you were both getting points based on another production shooter's time which was probably relatively close to your times. When a good open shooter goes at the long stages with only one reload, their time will usually be much better than production shooters reloading 3 or 4 times. Since the overall uses that time for awarding points based on percentages- you and the other guy's times were not so far apart in comparison and so you most likely got WAY less than 72 points more than him. The exact opposite happens on short courses (the open time is much closer to your times) and most likely he still got you by near the same number. Thus the change. Thanks Tim/GA! He was smokin fast on the two shorter stages and not to far behind some of the fastest open shooters you mentioned... It is all starting to make a little sense now! Thanks again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Essentially for the production results your (and his) points per stage were factored off one set of high hit factors -- those set by the folks who won those stages in Production Division. For the overall, it's likely that competitors shooting in another division, set a higher hit factor, on one or more stages in the match, than the high hit factor set by the production shooter who placed first (in production) on those stages. So now, the calculation starts over fresh. Comparing the results of any individual division against the overall is a little like comparing oranges and tangerines; they may be related, but they're not going to be identical..... Nik, Thanks for taking the time to explain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Glad to help. Since taking over as match director I have had to answer the question a number of times. Your match and scores really are the perfect example and it makes it easier to explain. Will have to use this post for the next time I am asked! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Pin this? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Also overall really doesnt count for much because you really cant make an accurate comparison, which is why you generally dont see overall results posted to USPSA for major matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjl Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Let me add one more easy to understand the math example. It is all hypothetical, of course. At our local match, with 5 stages, George won production by at total of 20 match points. Mark came in second, though he won 3 of the stages; however Mark zeroed the 100 point classifier stage which George won and received all 100 stage points. When the divisions were combined, Shooter X smoked/won the classifier, his hit factor was 2X George's, therefore when combined George only got 50 Stage Points for the Classifier - Mark still got zero points, so the point differential for that one stage went from 100 points (production only analysis) to only 50 points when combined. This change was sufficient to reverse the standings between Mark and George in the combined analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Also overall really doesnt count for much because you really cant make an accurate comparison, which is why you generally dont see overall results posted to USPSA for major matches. I Agree Joe4d, I just have a goal as a newer shooter to finish in the top half of the field so I always like to check... Also as a production shooter I like to keep tabs on the B limited shooters that are near my skill level to see how I am progressing in my skills. Sometimes I beat them even though they get more points for their C's and D's... Thanks for taking the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Let me add one more easy to understand the math example. It is all hypothetical, of course. At our local match, with 5 stages, George won production by at total of 20 match points. Mark came in second, though he won 3 of the stages; however Mark zeroed the 100 point classifier stage which George won and received all 100 stage points. When the divisions were combined, Shooter X smoked/won the classifier, his hit factor was 2X George's, therefore when combined George only got 50 Stage Points for the Classifier - Mark still got zero points, so the point differential for that one stage went from 100 points (production only analysis) to only 50 points when combined. This change was sufficient to reverse the standings between Mark and George in the combined analysis. Mjl that is a great example and even makes some sense for a math idiot like me.... There IS a reason I shoot production... The math of 10's and 8's is all I can handle.... Thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downrange58 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 A friend of mine who is also a USPSA shooter/accountant took some time out of his day to go over the match in question and it turns out I did finish in front of him in the overall Thank you everyone for the help on understanding our scoring system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now