bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I hope this is the right spot to ask. This will not be for 3 gun but rather a precision type of build, it will be shot prone and off the bench so weight is not an issue. Anyone have time behind a barrel that surprised or impressed you accuracy wise? Any info on groupings, ammo and distances is highly appreciated too. Edit: barrel dimensions would also be good. I know the usual suspects but I just wanted to make sure I covered all my bases for an upcoming build for myself. Edited August 9, 2011 by bpipe95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If weight is not a issue then a WOA barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I've shot/owned almost all of them and the most accurate one is still my Krieger. It is the DCM Contour, 20" 1:9. 5 shot 100 yard groups: 50 grain NBT was 0.22", 69 SMKs were 0.28" and 52 grain SMKs were 0.17". Rifle has a JP trigger, but besides that, a heavy DPMS FFT, and the barrel, everything else is Mil-Spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks for the info, Krieger and lothar seem to be the top two responses I have been getting. I am just looking for a good vendor that sells them now to ask a few questions. Ideally I would like the barrel to be capable of 1/2 moa with factory ammo, then I can load from there. I know the accuracy depends more on the Indian than the arrow, but I think I can do it. :)Consistency and repeatability will be the most important for me. Anyone ever used the 24" ss sabre barrel? I did a build for a buddy of mine using one. It started out FANTASTIC, but now with only 1500 rounds it has been going to shit quickly. All proper maintenance has been done I am just rather confused as to why it went out so suddenly. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I have had several JP's that are 1/4 min with my handload sierra 69's. Can't vouch for factory loads since I load my own. The groups only opened to MOA after years of abuse on my close range practice gun. Cleaned for dirt and dust only, no brushes or toxic cleaners. Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I've shot/owned almost all of them and the most accurate one is still my Krieger. It is the DCM Contour, 20" 1:9. 5 shot 100 yard groups: 50 grain NBT was 0.22", 69 SMKs were 0.28" and 52 grain SMKs were 0.17". Rifle has a JP trigger, but besides that, a heavy DPMS FFT, and the barrel, everything else is Mil-Spec. Looking over Kriegers site I noticed they have a choice of chambers. Do you by chance know which one you have on your barrel? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I've shot/owned almost all of them and the most accurate one is still my Krieger. It is the DCM Contour, 20" 1:9. 5 shot 100 yard groups: 50 grain NBT was 0.22", 69 SMKs were 0.28" and 52 grain SMKs were 0.17". Rifle has a JP trigger, but besides that, a heavy DPMS FFT, and the barrel, everything else is Mil-Spec. Looking over Kriegers site I noticed they have a choice of chambers. Do you by chance know which one you have on your barrel? Thanks! Yes, it is the .223 Rem. If ultimate accuracy is your goal, you want a .223 Rem chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yep, I was just looking over the configurations, they have some good options. To be honest even barrels directly from Krieger are not priced bad at all, before I looked at their site I was thinking it would cost me an arm and a leg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 JP. Everyone I have ever had was 1/2 MOA. 2 have been significantlly better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trail3 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) JP, once got a 3 shot group at 300 yard with Black Hills 77Gr. .770" Then shot two, 4 shot groups 1.25". Edited August 9, 2011 by Trail3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 From my service rifle shooting days, I had a Krieger 1:8 setup. That rifle shot a 10 round .13" group with 52gr SMKs and H335 at 100 yards. True story. Would you still believe me if I said those 10 round were auto-loaded from a magazine as well? It still astounds me to this day. Generally speaking I got half-MOA groups all day long with my 200/300 and 600 yard loads that were tuned to that rifle. It was a heck of a rifle, it took me to Master classification. I'd still be shooting service rifle today if the reloading chore wasn't so time consuming. I think I remember it being 4 hours to produce 200 rounds of my 600 yard load on a single stage. My 200/300 yard load was done on a progressive press with some extra TLC put towards consistent machine operation. No idea about factory ammo performance though. I'd always heard Federal Match was half-MOA ammo if your rifle liked it, but I can't say for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I'll agree that the barrels JP sells are some of the most accurate .223 Wylde chambered barrels. But the inherrant accuracy of the .223 Rem chambering is superior. I don't know if you can even get a .223 Rem chambered JP barrel. The OP stated this is for precision, not 3Gun. The .223 Wylde has many benefits for 3Gun, but some are just not needed when chasing ultimate accuracy. JP considers 1 MOA to be acceptable, and standard on their barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The .223 Wylde has many benefits for 3Gun, but some are just not needed when chasing ultimate accuracy. I can't say I'm up to date on the current goings on of 3gun, but back in the day (1990 or so) the Bill Wylde reamer was the only reamer available for a tight .223 chambering. As far as I know, it was the original standard for an accurate AR build. Perhaps now something better is available for supreme accuracy, but I'd have no reservations about a Bill Wylde chamber in a tack driver today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Anyone ever used the 24" ss sabre barrel? I did a build for a buddy of mine using one. It started out FANTASTIC, but now with only 1500 rounds it has been going to shit quickly. All proper maintenance has been done I am just rather confused as to why it went out so suddenly. Match grade barrels are made to extremely tight tolerances and frequently have very high twist rates intended for use with VLD bullets that are shot from a sled rather than a magazine. In these, guns, 1500 rounds is a high round count. They won't have anywhere near the life span you will find in a typical AR. If you are only shooting bench and prone, then have you considered a bolt action. You can get better precision for less overall cost and a really tremendous selection of quality to choose from. Heck, a Remington 700P or 5R will shoot sub MOA groups out of the box. I've seen people shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yds with what is basically a semi-custom Remington 700 or Savage 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellymc Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 My best is a krieger fron WOA 18 inches with a 1x7.7 twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I have a 10pc in .308 and have had two dif 700's in the past, I enjoy the AR platform much much more. If that barrel is shot out, I would consider that to be absolutely pathetic. I am not looking for a benchrest gun, I am looking for a barrel that will assist in delivering consistent sub 1/2 moa results with proper ammo. Consistency is my number 1 goal, knowing that if I do my part it will give me the same results over and over again for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 My best is a krieger fron WOA 18 inches with a 1x7.7 twist Any group size, ammo or distance info? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyreb Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I have been very pleased with my White Oak 18in bbl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 In my service rifles, I had my best accuracy with a barrel with less than 3000 rounds fired. I never adopted the witchdoctor cleaning regiments that most of "them" prescribed. I felt I got much better barrel life by not overcleaning. I ran moly coated SMKs in the 69, 77, and 80 grain variety. After the groups opened up, I opted for a new barrel. At one point I had my "good" barrel and my "practice" barrel on different uppers. My experience is most rifles will hold half-MOA accuracy until about 3000 rounds. For benchrest groups around .1", 1000 would be a better estimate. I've also had really good luck having barrels "set back" about an inch, cutting the barrel down and rechambering to get a new throat in the chamber. That isn't quite as easy with an AR barrel setup though because of the gas system. Velocity and bullet length make a big difference in how long a barrel shoots well. For instance, I found an 80gr SMK at 2600 fps wore out a barrel a lot faster than a 69gr SMK at 2900 fps. It's about 10% more speed in the lighter bullet, but the bullet area contacting the rifling was more than double in the heavier one. If you're curious how I "found" this info, I had a dedicated 1000 yard upper for a while that was fed only 80gr SMKs. That barrel wore out with about 2000 rounds. My "across the course" upper usually went for 3000 rounds or so on a 60/20 mix of 69/80gr SMKs. The other big factor is how much barrel heat you let build up. Firing 500 rounds in a short period would damage the barrel much more than the same 500 rounds fired in a long period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your help! My background has been mostly in building training rifles and carbines for people to take classes with. After building my "game" gun and shooting it in a precision match last week, I am kind of hooked. It really got me wanting to see just how good of a gun I can build, and just how good I can shoot it. I have narrowed it down to a few diff barrels, All would be a 20" 1/7-1/8 twist Not sure of contour yet but it will be heavy. Krieger- My number 1 pick. WOA- These guys have a cult following, though one I shot last week seemed to open up a good deal as it got hot, then came back after it cooled. left me puzzled. Lothar- These seem to be praised everywhere, but I have yet to see any real targets that were mind blowing. DPMS- Every SS I have seen or had of these has shot surprisingly well, I guess they use Wilson blanks like several other places. I know they are not in the same league as the above so lets call them my dark horse. Edited August 10, 2011 by bpipe95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USCSBarney Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Lothar Noveske Rainer Ultra Match White Oak In that order but the differences are not huge. They are all darn fine barrels but if I had to rate them it would be thus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpipe95 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 So after some research it turns out RRA, DPMS and WOA all use wilson barrels. Now I realize that a high production shop like the first two might not spend the same time chambering/finishing a barrel as WOA. BUT will it be such a difference to justify the cost of a WOA over RRA or DPMS? I wish I could find more results for lothar barrels than just "it's great"... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m134b Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Douglas and Krieger are my top two. Had both, absolutely love both brands. If properly chambered and maintained they will give excellent service for at least 5K rounds. You will know when they go too. Every barrel I've "worn out" went from sub MOA, to shotgun pattern in the space of 500 rounds when it reached the end of it's useful life. This is due to throat erosion. Easy fix is to remove the barrel, remove bbl extension, cut back to mid length, retime barrel extension, rechamber, and get another few thousand out of it! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 So after some research it turns out RRA, DPMS and WOA all use wilson barrels. Now I realize that a high production shop like the first two might not spend the same time chambering/finishing a barrel as WOA. BUT will it be such a difference to justify the cost of a WOA over RRA or DPMS? I wish I could find more results for lothar barrels than just "it's great"... lol More than just those three use Wilson barrels. Some retailers finish them, others are finished by Wilson. I've had mixed results with Lothars, one was great, two were pedestrian. Turns out there is Lothar, and then there is Lothar. The ones finished in the USA are not, IMHO, the same quality as the ones finished in Germany. However, getting a German finished Lothar is now near impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHE Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 This will not be for 3 gun but rather a precision type of build, it will be shot prone and off the bench so weight is not an issue. Hart 20" w/ 1-7 twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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