Area 4 50 Yard Stage

[j1b]

Been practicing for that 50 yard stage at Area 4 a bit. Not hard core - but dabbling a bit.

The first time limit is pretty tight for a limited gun. 5 Seconds for a draw, 3 load 3 at 50 yards. So my question is - how would any of you shoot it. I know I can do the drill in 5 seconds. I don't generally always get all of my hits. In other words - to get all 6 rounds off for me, with my limited gun at 50 yards is pretty tough. I generally nail 5 seconds to 5.2 seconds - which is obviously close to the barrier (the .30 rule in place)

I am contemplating just shooting 3 solid shots. Or possibly, shoot 3, reload, and shoot a 4th well aimed shot. Granted using this approach I lose 15 points, but that assumes I would get all of my hits and that they would be all A's. On top of that - if I punch all A's with 3, or 4 shots - that would probably make up for the loss of points by shooting fast.

Anyhow - a lot of factors that I would be curious to hear thoughts on. I still haven't decided. I know in the end I'll probably end up doing the full drill - but it would be good to hear ya'lls thoughts.

Thanks

JB

[Jeeper]

I was out there shooting this a week or so ago thinknig the same thing. I could generally get 6 hits but they usually sucked and I was right at the time limit. I was thinking of going 3 really good - load and 1 which might get the most points for me. I mean 4 A's is 20 and 6 d's is 12. Even 6 c's is 24 but I dont know if I can do that.

I want to see what others say. Right now the stage description is also mesed up since it says there are penalties for misses.

[sfinney]

Yeah, thats what threw me... I was thinking it would be a 50 yd. no penalty miss stage, but after reading the description as printed, I said oh @#$#, thats going to be tough. Hopefully they correct the wording

For me, both the first string and third string will be tough - I need to practice my going prone manuever til its slightly more graceful than a bear falling out of a tree. As it is right now, I'm so jarred from hitting the ground I see stars for a few seconds

With my Limited gun, I think overall though that I will go for all 6 shots per target, get the hits, and hope to luck and the law of averages that not ALL of them will be D hits.... if I get to cute and try all A shots with a fewer shots, I'd probably drop a couple to C hits anyway. I feel more comfrotable with more rounds down range I think.

Anyone else?

[j1b]

You know the kicker for me was when I thought about what I would do with my open gun. Clearly I'd go for all 6 with the open gun - no question - but it would be challenging. Not impossible granted, but challenging. If I convert that over to limited it becomes very challenging.

I don't know . . . like I said - I know I can meet the time. And I can get all the hits. Quite frankly I've shot some decent runs - but I also know that the match will add a new dynamic. Hopefully it will be a stage I shoot near the end - that will also impact what I do. If I'm behind by quite a few points tell anyone down range to duck because all the lead is coming!

JB

[Jeeper]

Just so you know the miss penalties ARE AN ERROR on the procedure. I talked to the match director about this already. I dont know if it will be corrected on the web but it will on the walkthrough.

[Flexmoney]

I would assume it will be one procedural per shot fired if you skip the reload? Or, just one procedural period?

[Precision40]

I've been shooting from a bench at 50 yards shooting slow, consistent groups concentrating on getting every hit on target. Reading the sites and trying to get a feel of the sight picture at that distance.

I think the best thing to do is to not rush the first 3 shots on the first string. Shoot them slow and guarantee yourself the points. IF you have time to reload and get the next three, that's good, but don't rush the first 3 and get misses.

Kneeling is no problem, so I don't practice it but maybe once or twice per session.

Going prone is going to be my downfall. I don't go prone easily. Mainly because I'm 6'4, have a pot belly and a bad back. So I've been starting prone and concentrating ONLY on the shooting part. The week or so before A4, I will practice going prone and shooting it.

[j1b]

Kyle

I think the only time you'd receive a penalty on not doing the reload is if you shot 4 shots w/o the load. If a shooter gets up there, misses their draw, shoots their pace on the first 3, and the beep goes off before they are able to complete the load I don't believe they would be assessed with a penalty.

I may have written my proposal wrong - my contention is shoot the whole stage complete, shooting only the 3 (mocking a reload if necessary) or shooting 3, reload, and one final shot - all well aimed.

Sorry if I confused the issue.

JB

[Matthew_Mink]

Depends on the individual, I think. I am going for the gold, so I am going to try for all 6 hits. In practice I can rip them out if I hit the reload good. There is a disaster factor there, but I think I can pull it off. In practice I can usually get all 6 shots in the A/C zone, under 5. Whether or not that happens during the match is a whole nuther story.

[j1b]

Matt

How'd you do today on it? I heard Little Rock mocked the stage up -

JB

[BDH]

I would assume it will be one procedural per shot fired if you skip the reload?  Or, just one procedural period?

Just to clarify..... if this is a Fixed Time COF, then misses do not count.

As for the Procedural call, skipping the reload and taking the remaining three shots would earn one Procedural per shot. However, if you focused on just getting three solid hits (and did not do the reload), no Procedural applied.

[Matthew_Mink]

Matt

How'd you do today on it? I heard Little Rock mocked the stage up -

JB

I had to work!! Talk about a missed opportunity.....

[markm]

The overtime thing is a real concern. I have to rip the stage to get all six off, then one bobble, and overtime is a procedural. Thats two A hits gone for the string. Think I'll do the 4 shots per string and go for the points with no pressure on getting overtime shots. This "one shot away from greatness" I've been doing, just isn't cutting it.

Mark

[DBChaffin]

I set it up to practice for the first time last Thursday. With my Limited gun, I think I am in a very similar boat as Jack. IF everything goes well, I can shoot the 3 reload 3 in about 4.9-5.2. It is VERY close though, with several running just over time (5.3-5.5). Also, a couple of the runs with good times would have one mistery miss and 5 decent hits (A's/C's). Of course the match will add a new dynamic as Jack mentioned.

I plan on setting it up and trying it a few more times, but after my first session I was left with a pretty strong feeling that shooting 3, reloading and shooting 2 would be the best option for me. MUCH safer and if I can get 5 solid hits, it is better than risking an overtime shot and/or throwing D's and misses by forcing a 6th shot.

I really wish it was turning targets like at the Limited Nationals in 2001. That makes it so much better (to me) for several reasons. True, it is harder to practice for most people since most don't have access to turning targets. However, that almost gives a more level playing field and you can just shoot what you see. Overtime shots shouldn't be too common on turning targets. . .

FWIW, I tried the kneeling and had no problem dropping to a knee and firing 6. The ground wasn't in the best shape so I didn't try prone. I will get to that at some point though. I figure 6 prone ought to be ok as well. Slower first shot but slightly quicker splits. Anyone have thoughts on those two strings? Oh, and I will be turning my hat around backwards, tilting it up, or taking it off before going prone. I learned a tough lesson on that one a while back in Ohio.

[Loves2Shoot]

I would make sure Idon't over think it and let it get under my skin. There is nothing to be gained on this stage really. C hits are acceptable for me at 50 limited in a match situation. I would step up, draw the gun at the buzzer and see a good sight picture and take 3 GOOD shots, reload and start taking good shots until I heard the buzzer. The thing about planning to take only 1 shot after the reload is it limits you and you aren't letting your vision make your decisions. I find that letting my vision decide what to do usually works out better than over thinking things.

This is a nothing stage, and you can shoot, let the shooting take care of itself and keep your brain out of the way and you'll do fine on the stage.

[sfinney]

Ok, now I'm torn.,.. just came from range, and lets just say it was challenging getting off 3 reload 3 in a controlled manner..... had trouble staying on tgt at 50 yds. No point in shooting 6 if only three or four hit, and they are all C - D. I think 3 As and C, or 4 As , might be acceptable -

Maybe 3 controlled shots, reload, and then get what you can is a good approach for the mere mortal among us.

Kneeling is no problem.

Prone is going to be tough for me, I'm going to have to practice this ALOT the next month.

My local club ran a watered down version of this a couple weeks ago, they shot 3 targets, 6 per tgt, in a fixed time of 18? seconds. Not much challenge compared to this standards stage, gave me false confidence.

I guess I'll buck tradition and actually practice for this Area 4 this year

[Lee Dimaculangan]

i dont trust dot guns on 50 yard targets =/ - but it seems simple - that first string just requires a pretty decent draw out of the holster and a pretty decent reload- and take time on those shots - plus it helps keep those mags light... i dont think i'd push for more than 8-9 rounds in each mag.. that first string maybe 4-5 rounds

overall those stages this year look more difficult than last year's - on paper at least - we'll see next month

[Jeeper]

Allright,

I just shot 200 rounds at this and am more confused now than ever. I shot it when the stage diagrams came out a couple months ago but today was horrible. My best was 65 points out of 90 but my worst was 17(OUCH!!!) Most runs were in the low 40's. I really need more practice going prone.(Carpet burns here I come ). The kneeling should really be the moneymaker here. THat should be good for 24-30. I am pretty convinced I am going for 3 standing 6 kneeling and 3-4 prone.

[tightloop]

Lee

Why don't you trust dot guns at 50 yds? sighted in correctly, they should be as reliable as anything else. fresh battery and you are good to go..

[MarkS_A18138]

Worked on this Monday and found out my wife's gun shot like a shotgun at 50. I am hoping it's the load. Going to change bullets and try it again. I still could only get 3 plus reload and 1 with my limited gun. Shots are all over the place! So much for any chance in Limited A class!!!!!

[Detlef]

it's fixed time, so no (!) penalties for shots not fired, or for misses.

In Production, it's a total no-brainer: 3 solid As will give you 15 pts, already 2As and a 2Cs (16 pts) is barely worth it and high-risk in comparison. I know from training that 6 As (w/o reload!!!) take me 8+ sec when I'm pumped up. If you can do it in 1/2 the time, you can shoot all 6 shots (but it will *still* be high risk!).

In Limited, I'd still just shoot 3, but I'm only a lowly M with match jitters. An experienced M or GM, in cold blood, will probably benefit from shooting all shots.

This is all about risk management. Little to gain (15 pts), much to lose (30 pts)... In a big match like this, you care about stage placement more than about stage percentage. *Someone* (often some unknown lucky bastard) in Limited will probably get lucky and walk away with 30 pts. In Standard exercises like this one, even pitiful percentages (like 50%, or 15 pts) will usually still mean good placement (top 15 or so). Just don't drop out of the running (like world champ Eric Grauffel on the Standards at the 2003 Limited Nats...), and you'll be o.k.

--Detlef

[MarkS_A18138]

I am with you I am going for 3 solid a's!!

[uscbigdawg]

So I set this stage up for practice after reading the discussions. Here's the strategy that I had before starting (time and split):

Draw: 1.5/1.5

2nd shot: 1.8/.3

3rd shot: 2.1/.3

4th shot: 3.6/1.5

5th shot: 3.9/.3

6th shot: 4.2/.3

When I did it:

Draw: 1.2/1.2

2nd shot: 1.6/.4

3rd shot: 2.0/.4

4th shot: 3.6/1.6

5th shot: 4.1/.5

6th shot: 4.6/.5

* Down two points (4 A's and 2 C's).

I find it a lot easier to break down difficult stages (or portions of stages) by doing some split comparisons. This score was fairly consistent. Granted, some worse some better (got 6 A's on a 4.0...nailed the draw and reload) but this one was cold (i.e. match conditions).

I would say that a smooth deliberate first shot, quick, but deliberate 2-3 shots, a smooth deliberate reload and deliberate finish and y'all should do fine. Jim Shanahan told me once, "Smooth is fast. Smooth is fast." On a stage like this...definitely.

Just my two Lincoln's. I wish I was going to the match.

Rich

[Detlef]

GM Open?

--Detlef

[uscbigdawg]

Detlef,

I hope you're not talking about me? I barely can get the gun belt on. It just comes down to a math equation (and obviously execution).

If we took .50 splits for each shot fired, there are four seconds left. Meaning, you do a 2 second draw and a 2 second reload. I think every shooter from C Class up is capable of this without too much difficulty. It's like Matt Burkett says. Shooting is not our job. So, any pressure that we take to the line is brought upon ourselves.

Trust in your preparation. Trust in what you have practiced. And when you're called to the line, just do what YOU KNOW you are capable of. You know you are capable because you did it in practice. Just do it one more time!

A big help for me is visualization. There have been tons of studies regarding visualization. Basically, when you are properly focused and properly visualize an action, your brain cannot distinguish the difference between the image and reality.

I wish y'all the best. Again, I wish I could go. I love crawfish and shrimp by the truck load!

Rich