Competition only equipment.

[Ty Hamby]

I myself have been sucked into the "if it fits in the box" your good to go. But the more I see Competition only equipment on the range, I wonder if it will ever stop or will I continue to buy the latest wizzbang that conforms with the rest of the rule book. Here is just a couple of items that come to mind.

CR speed outer belt through the belt loops. (Is that an everyday wear type of item?)

Mag-wells that are exaggerated well beyond the width of the grip, but "it fits in the box". They both looks a little like competition only to me. I own both and while I have not worn the CR (outer or inner belt only) at an IDPA match, I have learned that it would be ok because it doesnt break any other rule in the rule book.

I am a friend of magwells and CR speed. My carry 1911 has an S&A magwell. My M&P40 carry doesnt need one, yet My IDPA M&P Pro would not leave the house without Shooter connection magwell on it with ESP +.8oz basepads. IDPA legal? It fits in the box. Is it Competition only equipment.

I am sure there are more items that fit in the realm of competition only equipment that MD's have no problem with. I would like to get other opinions on how you define competition only equipment. What is the concensus of the more experianced shooters that these two items listed above (as well as other items) are not competition only equipment? Where is the line. I hope this stays constuctive. I am eager to hear other opinions.

[jmorris]

I use a supported WT belt daily and carry pistols that would get you DQ'ed at an idpa match. IDPA rules are for the game not life.

Further, "Competition only" is not defined in the rule book. "Practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defence.", leaves a lot of room for opnion's, myself, I game life.

Don't loose sleep over your competition only equipment remember the line right above that one in the book reads, "IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment including full charge service ammunition..."

And they allow "competition" using a 357 magnum down loaded to 105 PF. I'll follow the intent of the rules as much as HQ does, so I don't loose any advantage others are sure to use.

[solaritx]

It once again comes down to "why do you play this game?".

I love winning like most that play this game, but one man really got my respect a number of years ago. This man (not sure of his name) shot the IDPA National many years ago at ARK with full .357 mag loads for the entire match. Don't believe he won, but he was the talk of the National....and it was all positive.

Respect is earned.

Garry N

[jmorris]

That was my point, one guy shooting "full charge service ammunition" out of 270 some odd shooters, at a match five+ years ago stands out.

[jmorris]

At that was before they lowered the floor in SSR

[sirveyr]

I don't think I'd let the .357 guy shoot my poppers. Maybe if I shoot my G26 or my .380 LCP, I'll become a legend in the sport?

Many of the IDPA rules that apply to equipment are in place due to a "percieved competitive advantage". If the rules allow it, many competitiors, myself included, are going to exploit it right to the legal edge.

Edited August 1, 2011 by sirveyr

[smokshwn]

Just one opinion, but isn't somewhat ironic to have a "competition only " clause in a rulebook that governs a competition only, activity?

Simply meaning that if the equipment and gear you choose to shoot that competition comply with the rulebook, why be concerned over their lineage?

Edited August 1, 2011 by smokshwn

[Joe4d]

It's all competition gear, with the exception of prfessionals dealing with bad people routinely and a few tactical tims, I doubt anyone walks around with anything like the typical IDPA setup.

For a game suppossedly intended for concealed cary defensive type arms, they have a set of rules that make those guns non competitive.

Thats why I think ESP, SSP, CDP should be scrapped in favor of full size, compact and sub compact.

[bhurte]

Overall, I feel the current rules are pretty fair in their level of restriction to limit the "competition only" gear.

There are a couple restrictions that could easily be debated either way. For instance, an over-sized mag button(ed brown, wilson, etc.) is much more likely to find its way onto a carry gun than an over-sized magwell (dawson ice) but the oversized mag button is an illegal modification for any division while the over-sized mag well is legal and common in the ESP division(given it fits in "the box")

Also, items like Crimson Trace lasers which are primarily for carry/home defense guns don't have a place inside the defense oriented IDPA.

I love the IDPA game, and agree with the idea that you have to draw a line on these type of modifications somewhere to keep a level equipment playing field.

[M1911]

Thats why I think ESP, SSP, CDP should be scrapped in favor of full size, compact and sub compact.

That would be the end of 1911s in IDPA. An 8+1 round 1911 shooting .45 ACP can't keep up with a 10+1 Glock 34 shooting 125 PF 9mm. I would not support that change. And I do often carry fullsize 1911, so call me a "tactical Tim" if you wish.

[steel1212]

Thats why I think ESP, SSP, CDP should be scrapped in favor of full size, compact and sub compact.

That would be the end of 1911s in IDPA. An 8+1 round 1911 shooting .45 ACP can't keep up with a 10+1 Glock 34 shooting 125 PF 9mm. I would not support that change. And I do often carry fullsize 1911, so call me a "tactical Tim" if you wish.

wanna bet?

[GForceLizard]

I think IDPA (and USPSA) have come to a good balance. If you want to shoot your carry piece then shoot SSP (production). You may not win, unless you are very good. You made a choice that you are more interested in building experience with your carry gear than winning. Plenty of room for people who want to do that.

Others want to win the game. They don't give a rip about concealed carry. It's game plan and simple and they come to win. We got room for them too. I don't want to turn either type of shooter away. We need to attract both.

[M1911]

Thats why I think ESP, SSP, CDP should be scrapped in favor of full size, compact and sub compact.

That would be the end of 1911s in IDPA. An 8+1 round 1911 shooting .45 ACP can't keep up with a 10+1 Glock 34 shooting 125 PF 9mm. I would not support that change. And I do often carry fullsize 1911, so call me a "tactical Tim" if you wish.

wanna bet?

No, I don't particularly care to get in a pissing contest with you.

[Joe4d]

Then maybe the 1911 45 is an obsolete tool in defensive and practical circles. Which is basically what you just said and it is even more inferior to the same gun loaded to capacity, The 1911 SS 45 is only competitive in divisions that basically prohibit anything else or by rule limit other guns advantages.

With the huge majority of IDPA stages under 17 rounds, I actually dont see that much of a difference.

If you look at major match scores there isnt much of a spread in CDP,ESP,and SSP. SSP and ESP are a little closer but it isnt like they run away.

Full size, (current ESP rules)

Compact, (current SSP rules with the removal of trigger action rules and a 1 inch spacer is put along the short side of the box.

Sub compact, (current SSP rules with a 1" spacer along side and bottom of box.

[Trail3]

I would never use my competition guns for carry. Triggers are way too light, about 3 1/4 Lbs., Para 16/40 w/magwell, XD9 Tactical, w/magwell, Glock 35. Ty, just join the race and be a gamer like the rest of us are, you know you want to. LOL!

So to be honest, my IDPA guns are competiton only, unless SHTF and then I would use them all.

[steel1212]

Thats why I think ESP, SSP, CDP should be scrapped in favor of full size, compact and sub compact.

That would be the end of 1911s in IDPA. An 8+1 round 1911 shooting .45 ACP can't keep up with a 10+1 Glock 34 shooting 125 PF 9mm. I would not support that change. And I do often carry fullsize 1911, so call me a "tactical Tim" if you wish.

wanna bet?

No, I don't particularly care to get in a pissing contest with you.

Wasn't trying to get into a pissing match with you at all. I'm just stating what Joe said in that there isn't that much difference. Around here depending on who shows up the 1911 is the gun to beat across the board not just in CDP or ESP.

[M1911]

Wasn't trying to get into a pissing match with you at all. I'm just stating what Joe said in that there isn't that much difference. Around here depending on who shows up the 1911 is the gun to beat across the board not just in CDP or ESP.

Sorry if I took it wrong.

Around here, the vast majority of shooters are SSP and their times are typically lower than CDP. 9mm has less recoil than .45 ACP. Glocks have an admirably low bore axis and 10+1 is a significant advantage over 8+1. Combine that with a double stack mag and larger magwell, and it can be hard to keep up.

Certainly there are exceptions to any rule. A shooting buddy of mine often beats most comers using a 686.

Lumping CDP with SSP and ESP would, IMO, reduce the variety of guns involved, not increase it.

[steel1212]

Wasn't trying to get into a pissing match with you at all. I'm just stating what Joe said in that there isn't that much difference. Around here depending on who shows up the 1911 is the gun to beat across the board not just in CDP or ESP.

Sorry if I took it wrong.

Around here, the vast majority of shooters are SSP and their times are typically lower than CDP. 9mm has less recoil than .45 ACP. Glocks have an admirably low bore axis and 10+1 is a significant advantage over 8+1. Combine that with a double stack mag and larger magwell, and it can be hard to keep up.

Certainly there are exceptions to any rule. A shooting buddy of mine often beats most comers using a 686.

Lumping CDP with SSP and ESP would, IMO, reduce the variety of guns involved, not increase it.

Simple, I'll shoot a 9mm 1911 then I'm at 10 plus one like the SSP guys, my gun recoils less, is more accurate, and has a better trigger.

[tavman]

Let's not forget the "vests" I see everyone wearing at our local matches. I don't see many of them walking around on the streets as everyday wear??

[Merlin Orr]

My carry gun and holster are both illegal for IDPA competition. And just a guess but I'll bet that if you take ALL of the concealed handguns that are actually carried on person that more carry what I do (or extremely similar) ...... than any other combination.

Keltec .380 in my front pocket.

Kind of ironic but out of the numerous guns I own there are maybe 2 that are not competition only guns with my pocket pistol being one of those.......

[Duane Thomas]

I carry a Glock 34 in a Comp-Tac holster under a Concealed Carry Clothiers vest every day. If you wonder what that all looks like, show up at our local IDPA club and you can see me wearing it there, as well.

[StephenG]

I guess I am another anomaly then. I shoot my daily carry gun as well. A full size Kimber Tactical in a Milt Sparks HR-LTD. I've also shot my P7 M8 in a Matt DelFatti holster.

[M1911]

Let's not forget the "vests" I see everyone wearing at our local matches. I don't see many of them walking around on the streets as everyday wear??

I've worn my vest around for years. At most, I get people asking me how was the fishing. I tell them it was a little slow.

[M1911]

Simple, I'll shoot a 9mm 1911 then I'm at 10 plus one like the SSP guys, my gun recoils less, is more accurate, and has a better trigger.

How many people own a 9mm 1911? One that actually works?

I've got 7 1911s. I love them. I'm actually classified expert in CDP. But there is no way I can shoot one as fast as some of these guys machine-gun Glock 34s.

Here's a typical example, the 2011 MA championship. Top CDP master, 143. Top SSP master, 122. http://rodgun-nb.org/ap/results/MA_IDPA_2011/2011-06-04.htm

And that's typical for the results that I see.

[steel1212]

Simple, I'll shoot a 9mm 1911 then I'm at 10 plus one like the SSP guys, my gun recoils less, is more accurate, and has a better trigger.

How many people own a 9mm 1911? One that actually works?

I've got 7 1911s. I love them. I'm actually classified expert in CDP. But there is no way I can shoot one as fast as some of these guys machine-gun Glock 34s.

Here's a typical example, the 2011 MA championship. Top CDP master, 143. Top SSP master, 122. http://rodgun-nb.org.../2011-06-04.htm

And that's typical for the results that I see.

Keep in mind that at your state match your CDP champ is also high Senior as well. Not saying that makes him slow necisarily but it could make a difference if Edward Stettmeier is in his 20s.

Thats just not the typical results that I see around here. Jeff Wilson of Glock Triggers.com is shooting a Glock Obviously and I'm shooting a .40 Major Power factor 1911 with 8 round mags in ESP. Pretty straight up I think. We had one master shooting a glock and he didn't spank us. I have more non .45 caliber 1911s than .45s. I take the time to figure out what makes them work 100% and then shoot the snot out of them. I also garuntee you that I can shoot my .40 at major PF faster than I can my 9mm, why, because its what I'm used to. If I only shot IDPA and shot my 9mm 100% of the time that gun would be blazing fast. Yes it runs 100% as well or I would shoot it. You don't have to agree with me, but its just not the same every where as it is in MA. Just like in USPSA we go south and its all Open and Limited, here there are a lot of SS and production shooters.

1 Corey Estill ESP EX 102.60 41 16.63 7 19.18 7 16.27 8 8.47 1 15.59 6 8.55 4 17.91 8

2 Jeff Wilson ESP EX 104.56 33 14.58 2 19.47 5 18.03 7 9.06 3 18.98 8 6.82 0 17.62 8

1 Barry West SSP MA 131.37 51 24.08 9 24.01 16 19.72 8 13.41 4 16.09 2 16.26 7 17.80 5

Edited August 2, 2011 by steel1212