The most important thing

[JThompson]

You have to have the mental patients to do what....

Sorry, I lol'd

Most of us would probably qualify for either use of the word.

JT

[Flexmoney]

Brian,

I think you can take it one step earlier and say you know where the bullet will impact before the shot is fired.

Then it's up to the shooter to figure out how they are going to do that.

JT

No, not really, before the shot is fired there are a number of things that can effect where it goes when it is fired and not have it end up where you thought it would. When the bullet actually leaves you need to know where it is headed, good or bad. Technically you can't know where the bullet will impact before it is fired, only where you would like it to impact and these two things are not always the same.

I've made up shots on steel...with splits of 0.17s (which is faster than my reaction time) How can that be? I was seeing/aware that the shot was going to be off before I actually got the shot broke.

[38supPat]

Are you sure you were aware of that before it went off or after?

[Standby!]

Can I be the fly in the ointment?

Calling shots, or seeing the sights lift mean nothing if trigger control sucks?

[lugnut]

To control the gun and the pull of the trigger such that the sight picture you want is maintained until the shot breaks.

Either that or just "Hit shit fast!"

Edited August 1, 2011 by lugnut

[Flexmoney]

Can I be the fly in the ointment?

Calling shots, or seeing the sights lift mean nothing if trigger control sucks?

Well, we should be able to see that the trigger control sucks...by calling the shot. Calling the shot is the observation of what is happening. (Kinda like the difference between a steering wheel and rumble strips on the side of the interstate, perhaps?)

[lugnut]

Can I be the fly in the ointment?

Calling shots, or seeing the sights lift mean nothing if trigger control sucks?

Well, we should be able to see that the trigger control sucks...by calling the shot. Calling the shot is the observation of what is happening. (Kinda like the difference between a steering wheel and rumble strips on the side of the interstate, perhaps?)

Yeah but you can be the best shot caller in the world... but if you can't manage the trigger/gun well... you still won't be hitting stuff. See my post above.

[Flexmoney]

I've made up shots on steel...with splits of 0.17s (which is faster than my reaction time) How can that be? I was seeing/aware that the shot was going to be off before I actually got the shot broke.

Are you sure you were aware of that before it went off or after?

It is not likely after, because my reaction time is not that fast. I had to be getting information in advance of the shot breaking to have made the decision to fire again in that amount of time.

[Standby!]

Can I be the fly in the ointment?

Calling shots, or seeing the sights lift mean nothing if trigger control sucks?

Well, we should be able to see that the trigger control sucks...by calling the shot. Calling the shot is the observation of what is happening. (Kinda like the difference between a steering wheel and rumble strips on the side of the interstate, perhaps?)

I understand it's awareness, but the mind can only focus on one thing..I get that it should be the sights..but you cannot subconsciously pull a trigger either.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Standby!

[ihatepickles]

Yeah but you can be the best shot caller in the world... but if you can't manage the trigger/gun well... you still won't be hitting stuff. See my post above.

This is paradoxical. You cannot control the trigger until you've learned to call shots. Shot calling is the critical skill.

[Standby!]

I didn't mean to derail the thread..please continue.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Standby!

[lugnut]

Yeah but you can be the best shot caller in the world... but if you can't manage the trigger/gun well... you still won't be hitting stuff. See my post above.

This is paradoxical. You cannot control the trigger until you've learned to call shots. Shot calling is the critical skill.

Huh??? I humbly disagree with this. Just because you can call shots doesn't mean you control the trigger/gun. In all likelihood those skills will be developed equally but I'm sure one or the other or both can fail at times. I've seen top shooters throw a Mike or Delta and know they did it... how? They didn't control the gun/sight pic well enough to get an A. Shot calling doesn't always mean you get great shots with good trigger control... they are two different things.

To quote Brian from his 1st post:

"Calling each shot and hitting each target, in a sense are related, and in a sense have nothing to do with each other."

Edited August 1, 2011 by lugnut

[Flexmoney]

Can I be the fly in the ointment?

Calling shots, or seeing the sights lift mean nothing if trigger control sucks?

Well, we should be able to see that the trigger control sucks...by calling the shot. Calling the shot is the observation of what is happening. (Kinda like the difference between a steering wheel and rumble strips on the side of the interstate, perhaps?)

I understand it's awareness, but the mind can only focus on one thing..I get that it should be the sights..but you cannot subconsciously pull a trigger either.

You might be in a place where you are looking/needing to put conscience thought into your trigger control? (If you want to start a thread on that, it would make for a good topic.)

[gohuskers]

The most important thing is knowing where the bullet will go when the bullet leaves the barrel.

+1

[Standby!]

The most important thing is knowing where the bullet will go when the bullet leaves the barrel.

+1

Downrange? Sorry..I couldn't resist!

[ihatepickles]

Huh??? I humbly disagree with this. Just because you can call shots doesn't mean you control the trigger/gun. In all likelihood those skills will be developed equally but I'm sure one or the other or both can fail at times. I've seen top shooters throw a Mike or Delta and know they did it... how? They didn't control the gun/sight pic well enough to get an A. Shot calling doesn't always mean you get great shots with good trigger control... they are two different things.

To quote Brian from his 1st post:

"Calling each shot and hitting each target, in a sense are related, and in a sense have nothing to do with each other."

I'll put this to you another way. How would you ever know if you have trigger control if you cannot call your shots?

That is why I said your statement was a paradox. You wouldn't have much luck mastering the trigger if you could not call shots. The way I took your comments was: "learn both in parallel, because both are useful". I don't think that's really possible. I think you can learn some of the basics of trigger control and get an idea of how to break the trigger clean without shot calling, but it's not similar to the control of the trigger you develop once you can call shots.

You threw out a scenario with some questions as well. A good shooter would know they had a Mike because they called the shot a Mike. The reason for this Mike could very well have been a bad trigger press but only the shooter can really say for sure. This is very much what I mean, the top shooter called the shot and know they had the Mike. When they're done they can asked themselves what happened to cause the bad shot and they can improve. A lesser shooter with a Mike might not have the first clue where to break down the failure, to them it looked good when the shot broke. How do you know whether you had a bad trigger press or poorly aligned sight picture, etc... if you can't call the shot?

I agree with you that shot calling doesn't give you good trigger control. I also agree the two aren't the same.

I'm saying shot calling is fundamental to trigger control. You can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. One must come before the other.

[38supPat]

I've made up shots on steel...with splits of 0.17s (which is faster than my reaction time) How can that be? I was seeing/aware that the shot was going to be off before I actually got the shot broke.

Are you sure you were aware of that before it went off or after?

It is not likely after, because my reaction time is not that fast. I had to be getting information in advance of the shot breaking to have made the decision to fire again in that amount of time.

Some questions; you are saying that you believe this is what is happening because you don't believe you can react that fast, so are you basing it on what you believe, not what you see? Is the make up shot an actual reaction to what you saw? Or subconscious action? Are these the same thing, or can our subconcious actually do this kind of task quicker than we believe? How long before the shot breaks are you "reacting" before it put you in the zone where you think it is within your reaction time? If you are reacting to what you see 5 or even 10 one hundreths of a second before the shot fires are you seeing what is happening when the shot actually fires or what you think should happen, or do you see anything at all?

[Flexmoney]

Pat, I have tested my reaction time, both auditory and visual. In a linear environment (meaning X...then Y..then Z) my reaction time is slower than the slits on my make-up shots.

In the couple of instances that come to mind, I am seeing to a very high degree.

I am also seeing in a continuous manner. My responses are subconscious, but I don't believe that accounts for the speed (as I can get subconscious responses on the reaction tests too).

I attribute the speed of the makeup shot (being faster than my reaction time) to continuous seeing. In this case, seeing things that are happening right before the shot breaks.

(I bumped a few topics up where I've mentioned this before. We should probably talk about it there, and not drift this thread further.)

[benos]

Sure you can Pat because you don't fire it until you know where it's going to go...

That's not always true. I can remember calling many shots that did not go where I wanted them to go.

be

[lugnut]

How do you know whether you had a bad trigger press or poorly aligned sight picture, etc... if you can't call the shot?

I agree with you that shot calling doesn't give you good trigger control. I also agree the two aren't the same.

I'm saying shot calling is fundamental to trigger control. You can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. One must come before the other.

Oh trust me I know! Shot calling- at least for me isn't binary- sometimes I can get a better idea than others as to where it went. I'm not so sure I agree that you can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. There have been plenty of times were I know I have had great execution of the trigger pull but wasn't quite sure where the shots went but to find a nice tight double in the center of the A. Sometimes the same trigger pull will yield bad shots as my sight picture wasn't good enough for say- that 20 yard shot... you might argue that my trigger finger misaligned the sights at the last minute but that's not the only cause.

[Supermoto]

your hits stay where your sights left.

[38supPat]

I kinda like that

[JThompson]

Pat, I have tested my reaction time, both auditory and visual. In a linear environment (meaning X...then Y..then Z) my reaction time is slower than the slits on my make-up shots.

In the couple of instances that come to mind, I am seeing to a very high degree.

I am also seeing in a continuous manner. My responses are subconscious, but I don't believe that accounts for the speed (as I can get subconscious responses on the reaction tests too).

I attribute the speed of the makeup shot (being faster than my reaction time) to continuous seeing. In this case, seeing things that are happening right before the shot breaks.

(I bumped a few topics up where I've mentioned this before. We should probably talk about it there, and not drift this thread further.)

Yes, exactly so... You can feel that the process is flawed before the bullet leaves the barrel. At that point, why wait for the call on a bad shot? I can already be in the process of firing another shot. We're not talking about something that happens all the time, but when I'm really in the pocket, I know the process was flawed and therefore do not wait for the call, but put another shot on.

You still have to commit to accepting nothing less than an A before you break the shot. That doesn't always provide you an A, but you need to first have the mindset that "middle brown, hope A" is not acceptable. That is probably one on my biggest flaws as a shooter... I accept an area of the target and break the shot, when I know beforehand, it is likely not an A. I call the shot right where I had accepted it... C.

In the quest for speed it's easy to think, it's not a D... good enough. Less so with minor loads, but you get the idea I'm trying to get across to you.

I say the "commitment" to shoot an A every time is the most important thing. After all, If you accept a C and call the shot, you still have a C.

JT

Edited August 2, 2011 by JThompson

[Standby!]

I can't tell when firing fast splits whether my trigger control is good until after the fact, I'm too busy focusing on putting the front sight where it needs to be..I can't have both...at the same time, and hope to be competitive. Fast split trigger control would be different when not rushed by a timer that seems to be stuck in fast forward. These are my observations, and probably tell the advanced shooter how long I've been at it..not long. Don't get me wrong, I know what a good shot is supposed to feel like..it seems impossible at match speed to me. That is another topic..and another thread.

[Standby!]

Huh??? I humbly disagree with this. Just because you can call shots doesn't mean you control the trigger/gun. In all likelihood those skills will be developed equally but I'm sure one or the other or both can fail at times. I've seen top shooters throw a Mike or Delta and know they did it... how? They didn't control the gun/sight pic well enough to get an A. Shot calling doesn't always mean you get great shots with good trigger control... they are two different things.

To quote Brian from his 1st post:

"Calling each shot and hitting each target, in a sense are related, and in a sense have nothing to do with each other."

I'll put this to you another way. How would you ever know if you have trigger control if you cannot call your shots?

That is why I said your statement was a paradox. You wouldn't have much luck mastering the trigger if you could not call shots. The way I took your comments was: "learn both in parallel, because both are useful". I don't think that's really possible. I think you can learn some of the basics of trigger control and get an idea of how to break the trigger clean without shot calling, but it's not similar to the control of the trigger you develop once you can call shots.

You threw out a scenario with some questions as well. A good shooter would know they had a Mike because they called the shot a Mike. The reason for this Mike could very well have been a bad trigger press but only the shooter can really say for sure. This is very much what I mean, the top shooter called the shot and know they had the Mike. When they're done they can asked themselves what happened to cause the bad shot and they can improve. A lesser shooter with a Mike might not have the first clue where to break down the failure, to them it looked good when the shot broke. How do you know whether you had a bad trigger press or poorly aligned sight picture, etc... if you can't call the shot?

I agree with you that shot calling doesn't give you good trigger control. I also agree the two aren't the same.

I'm saying shot calling is fundamental to trigger control. You can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. One must come before the other.

I would say trigger control has to come before shot calling, or you end up calling things that won't happen. This goes deeper than trigger control, it's stance, grip etc. Nobody stated this was an advanced or beginning lesson, so at least in my position it looks like this topic is aimed at those who are beyond where I'm presently at, or is it? I just had an idea for a chart.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Standby!