The most important thing

[Standby!]

I'm not sure if this makes any sense to anyone but me..but here it is, I made this up a few minutes ago.

[CHA-LEE]

I think the most important thing is to allow yourself to have enough visual awareness so you can process the sight picture and call your shots effectively. I also think that we could replace "Visual Awareness" with "Visual Patience" and it would mean the same to a lot of shooters. Seeing and processing what you see happens super fast, so fast that its usually hard to gauge it against a real or assumed time line. I have lost count of how many times it "Felt" like it took FOREVER to see what I needed to see, but then look at the splits on the timer and be shocked by how fast things really happened. When I truly embraced the mantra of "If I just shoot as fast as I can call my shots, I will be fast enough" it was like a whole new world of shooting understanding opened up. Not to mention a huge leap forward in my shooting performance.

The only draw back to effectively calling your shots is that I feel like a fish out of water when I shoot in funky lighting conditions which keep me from being able to see what I need to see. It feels absolutely abnormal now to break a shot and not instantly know if its a good, bad or marginal based upon what I seen when the shot broke. Not to mention the abnormal feeling of consciously pulling the trigger knowing that I really don't know exactly where that shot is going. The other thing is stopping the automated bad called shot makeup process on Virginia count stages kind of sucks. But I would rather take an extra shot/hit penalty every once in a while and know that my shot calling skills are working effectively.

Edited August 2, 2011 by CHA-LEE

[38supPat]

Huh??? I humbly disagree with this. Just because you can call shots doesn't mean you control the trigger/gun. In all likelihood those skills will be developed equally but I'm sure one or the other or both can fail at times. I've seen top shooters throw a Mike or Delta and know they did it... how? They didn't control the gun/sight pic well enough to get an A. Shot calling doesn't always mean you get great shots with good trigger control... they are two different things.

To quote Brian from his 1st post:

"Calling each shot and hitting each target, in a sense are related, and in a sense have nothing to do with each other."

I'll put this to you another way. How would you ever know if you have trigger control if you cannot call your shots?

That is why I said your statement was a paradox. You wouldn't have much luck mastering the trigger if you could not call shots. The way I took your comments was: "learn both in parallel, because both are useful". I don't think that's really possible. I think you can learn some of the basics of trigger control and get an idea of how to break the trigger clean without shot calling, but it's not similar to the control of the trigger you develop once you can call shots.

You threw out a scenario with some questions as well. A good shooter would know they had a Mike because they called the shot a Mike. The reason for this Mike could very well have been a bad trigger press but only the shooter can really say for sure. This is very much what I mean, the top shooter called the shot and know they had the Mike. When they're done they can asked themselves what happened to cause the bad shot and they can improve. A lesser shooter with a Mike might not have the first clue where to break down the failure, to them it looked good when the shot broke. How do you know whether you had a bad trigger press or poorly aligned sight picture, etc... if you can't call the shot?

I agree with you that shot calling doesn't give you good trigger control. I also agree the two aren't the same.

I'm saying shot calling is fundamental to trigger control. You can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. One must come before the other.

I would say trigger control has to come before shot calling, or you end up calling things that won't happen. This goes deeper than trigger control, it's stance, grip etc. Nobody stated this was an advanced or beginning lesson, so at least in my position it looks like this topic is aimed at those who are beyond where I'm presently at, or is it? I just had an idea for a chart.

Shot calling is merely seeing where the sights were when the gun fired, regardless of what caused them to be at that point.

[Standby!]

Huh??? I humbly disagree with this. Just because you can call shots doesn't mean you control the trigger/gun. In all likelihood those skills will be developed equally but I'm sure one or the other or both can fail at times. I've seen top shooters throw a Mike or Delta and know they did it... how? They didn't control the gun/sight pic well enough to get an A. Shot calling doesn't always mean you get great shots with good trigger control... they are two different things.

To quote Brian from his 1st post:

"Calling each shot and hitting each target, in a sense are related, and in a sense have nothing to do with each other."

I'll put this to you another way. How would you ever know if you have trigger control if you cannot call your shots?

That is why I said your statement was a paradox. You wouldn't have much luck mastering the trigger if you could not call shots. The way I took your comments was: "learn both in parallel, because both are useful". I don't think that's really possible. I think you can learn some of the basics of trigger control and get an idea of how to break the trigger clean without shot calling, but it's not similar to the control of the trigger you develop once you can call shots.

You threw out a scenario with some questions as well. A good shooter would know they had a Mike because they called the shot a Mike. The reason for this Mike could very well have been a bad trigger press but only the shooter can really say for sure. This is very much what I mean, the top shooter called the shot and know they had the Mike. When they're done they can asked themselves what happened to cause the bad shot and they can improve. A lesser shooter with a Mike might not have the first clue where to break down the failure, to them it looked good when the shot broke. How do you know whether you had a bad trigger press or poorly aligned sight picture, etc... if you can't call the shot?

I agree with you that shot calling doesn't give you good trigger control. I also agree the two aren't the same.

I'm saying shot calling is fundamental to trigger control. You can't master the trigger before you can reliably call shots. One must come before the other.

I would say trigger control has to come before shot calling, or you end up calling things that won't happen. This goes deeper than trigger control, it's stance, grip etc. Nobody stated this was an advanced or beginning lesson, so at least in my position it looks like this topic is aimed at those who are beyond where I'm presently at, or is it? I just had an idea for a chart.

Shot calling is merely seeing where the sights were when the gun fired, regardless of what caused them to be at that point.

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

[lugnut]

Shot calling is merely seeing where the sights were when the gun fired, regardless of what caused them to be at that point.

This!!!

[Chris iliff]

Knowing exactly where the bullet will go when fired.

[Chris iliff]

The problem is that no matter how simple the statement is refined, you'll need "all" the more complex statements to explain it to a shooter.

It's a step process for everyone learning to shoot.

[lugnut]

The problem is that no matter how simple the statement is refined, you'll need "all" the more complex statements to explain it to a shooter.

It's a step process for everyone learning to shoot.

I think this one does a good job:

To control the gun and the pull of the trigger such that the sight picture you want is maintained until the shot breaks.

Other have posted similar ones. I don't think you need anything more complex to explain the "most important thing". Now.. to execute that simple "thing" is another issue and would take volumes of info.

[Flexmoney]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

[Sam]

The most important thing is to be ever present.

Calling the shot and all other fundamentals are degraded by the urge to be "finished".

[Sean Gaines]

Sure you can Pat because you don't fire it until you know where it's going to go...

That's not always true. I can remember calling many shots that did not go where I wanted them to go.

be

That can be very frustrating!!!!

The most important thing is to come up with a solid game plan, burn that plan vividly into your mind, over and over, so that your actions will become deliberate and then execute it the way you had visualized it!

[Steve Anderson]

When you can score your targets as you shoot, you are calling your shots.

I remember being able to do this almost all of the time at my peak...

SA

[DWFAN]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

If you call a shot, and see where the front sight lifted from.. and the bullet doesnt go to the spot where the sight lifted from, then you did not accurately call that shot, or your gun needs sighted in.

[Standby!]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

If you call a shot, and see where the front sight lifted from.. and the bullet doesnt go to the spot where the sight lifted from, then you did not accurately call that shot, or your gun needs sighted in.

That's not always the case..especially in a hurry.

[Flexmoney]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

If you call a shot, and see where the front sight lifted from.. and the bullet doesnt go to the spot where the sight lifted from, then you did not accurately call that shot, or your gun needs sighted in.

That's not always the case..especially in a hurry.

Well, it really is always the case. You seemed to be missing it at times is all.

[Flexmoney]

The most important thing is...

The desire to hit the target spot...and to KNOW that you did.

[Standby!]

Ok I've finally wrapped my head around this..correct me if I'm wrong. Shot calling is another way to say pay attention to where the sights are when the gun goes off. The bonus or side effect is, you can't call it if you can't see it; situational awareness on steroids. So in essence it doesn't matter where you hit it if you called it. It's proactive instead of reactive?

So here is my revised one liner..

You can't call it if you don't see it...the more I see it the better off I am.

My 6th match is coming up Monday, and I took lunch today at the pistol range and worked on this..I feel good with the results.

I'm new, and I'm very grateful for this site, and the help I receive here. The reason I couldn't call with confidence was in my execution of the fundamentals. That's why I posed those questions.

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited August 3, 2011 by Standby!

[DWFAN]

Ok I've finally wrapped my head around this..correct me if I'm wrong. Shot calling is another way to say pay attention to where the sights are when the gun goes off. The bonus or side effect is, you can't call it if you can't see it; situational awareness on steroids. So in essence it doesn't matter where you hit it if you called it. It's proactive instead of reactive?

So here is my revised one liner..

You can't call it if you don't see it...the more I see it the better off I am.

Correct, shot calling isnt just calling the A or -0 hits. Its calling/knowing all your shots including the D/Mike/No Shoot so you can make up the shot or move on.

See the sights, know your hits.

[bkeeler]

It is time to add this tip.......

BK

[benos]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

I'll second that Hmmmm...

How can you know where the bullet landed it if didn't land where your sights lifted from?

[JThompson]

The most important thing is...

The desire to hit the target spot...and to KNOW that you did.

It must be the end if days when Kyle and I are in complete agreement, twice in the same thread.

JT

Edited August 3, 2011 by JThompson

[Standby!]

All I'm saying is even though you called a shot, it doesn't necessarily mean the shot ends up where your sights lifted.

Hmmmm...

I'll second that Hmmmm...

How can you know where the bullet landed it if didn't land where your sights lifted from?

I didn't ask that..I just stated that not all shots go where they are called. Especially under stress.. a perceived alpha can result in a charlie.

I have to let go of the notion that this is a precision game, everyone wants all alphas all the time, it's not possible especially given the

stage times the top shooters run. Who would intentionally call a charlie? Nobody.. especially scored minor, but the scorecard tells a different story.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Standby!

[Supermoto]

. Who would intentionally call a charlie? Nobody..but the scorecard tells a different story.

I call charlies, I call Alphas, deltas and Mikes also. I make up the Deltas and Mikes I call. I make up the ones I don't call... because I don't know where they went. If the shot doesn't go where you thought it did, then you didn't call it.

[ihatepickles]

I didn't ask that..I just stated that not all shots go where they are called. Especially under stress.. a perceived alpha can result in a charlie.

I have to let go of the notion that this is a precision game, everyone wants all alphas all the time, it's not possible especially given the

stage times the top shooters run. Who would intentionally call a charlie? Nobody..but the scorecard tells a different story.

I can tell there's a misunderstanding here when I read this. If you're calling a shot an Alpha and when it's scored turns out it's a Charlie, then you messed up the shot call. That's a function of experience and skill coming together. The very best shooters in this sport sometimes screw up their calls, but you'll find them on the money 99% of the time.

So yes indeed, the very best shooters in the sport call Charlies/Deltas/Mikes all the time, it happens. It's up to their instinct to decide whether a make up shot would improve or hurt their score. If you read my original post in this thread here you'll see that I once thought the idea of accurately calling shots was BS, I'm in a place now where 85% of the time my calls are correct. I find myself scratching my head during scoring too, not sure where that Mike came from when I called it an Alpha. It's gratifying though when I call a Charlie, take my makeup shot, and then in scoring see that stray shot was way out in the Charlie area just like I called it.

Shot calling and deciding whether to makeup the bad shot are different things altogether. The discussions on hit-factor explain the logic behind makeup shots, at least in terms of USPSA shooting. IDPA has a slightly different scheme for scoring and makeups improve your score nearly 100% of the time.

Edited August 4, 2011 by ihatepickles

[Standby!]

I didn't ask that..I just stated that not all shots go where they are called. Especially under stress.. a perceived alpha can result in a charlie.

I have to let go of the notion that this is a precision game, everyone wants all alphas all the time, it's not possible especially given the

stage times the top shooters run. Who would intentionally call a charlie? Nobody..but the scorecard tells a different story.

I can tell there's a misunderstanding here when I read this. If you're calling a shot an Alpha and when it's scored turns out it's a Charlie, then you messed up the shot call. That's a function of experience and skill coming together. The very best shooters in this sport sometimes screw up their calls, but you'll find them on the money 99% of the time.

So yes indeed, the very best shooters in the sport call Charlies/Deltas/Mikes all the time, it happens. It's up to their instinct to decide whether a make up shot would improve or hurt their score. If you read my original post in this thread here you'll see that I once thought the idea of accurately calling shots was BS, I'm in a place now where 85% of the time my calls are correct. I find myself scratching my head during scoring too, not sure where that Mike came from when I called it an Alpha. It's gratifying though when I call a Charlie, take my makeup shot, and then in scoring see that stray shot was way out in the Charlie area just like I called it.

Shot calling and deciding whether to makeup the bad shot are different things altogether. The discussions on hit-factor explain the logic behind makeup shots, at least in terms of USPSA shooting. IDPA has a slightly different scheme for scoring and makeups improve your score nearly 100% of the time.

I'm not trying to prove the theory wrong..I'm clearly on board...I guess maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong angle..Isn't the whole purpose of this focus? If you can call it why can't you correct it? If you call it, then you consciously chose to take the shot for what it was? I'm not trying frustrate anyone here... analytically minded people wanna know.