wst and 40 cal

[okc icore]

how good a load is wst and 180gr lead bullets

[Shadowrider]

I've shot several thousand of them out of my 2011 limited gun. Nice and soft, little smoke and about as clean as your gonna get with lead. WST is my favorite cast bullet powder, but I'm liking clays in the revo quite a bit.

4.6gr WST at 1.185 OAL. You may have to bump that in a revo to make major. I also load 5.0 with 180 Hornady HAP at the same length. If you are going to be at the match Saturday, I can bring a few for you to try. If you have to load shorter you will have to drop that charge weight, at least to start out.

[z40acp]

4.6 grains of WST/ 180 grain FP lead @ 1.175" is a good load. Start a little lower and work up. I use WSP primers. When it is real hot in the summer, sometimes I have to bump the charge up a tenth or two of a grain { 4.8 }.

[SNSCaster2]

Agree with all of the above... just remember it's reverse temperature sensitive - Hot day=Lower PF

[kalaur]

I just went out to chrono some loads yesterday. I'm shooting 170gr Missouri Bullet LSWC over 4.8gr WST, about 169 PF. It was fairly warm (probably mid-upper 80s). I'm loading at 1.180, and this flattens federal primers pretty good. I still need to test loading longer (going to shoot for 1.20 or maybe 1.210) to see if that makes a difference with primers flattening. If not I'm switching to rifle primers :-)

[CocoBolo]

I just went out to chrono some loads yesterday. I'm shooting 170gr Missouri Bullet LSWC over 4.8gr WST, about 169 PF. It was fairly warm (probably mid-upper 80s). I'm loading at 1.180, and this flattens federal primers pretty good. I still need to test loading longer (going to shoot for 1.20 or maybe 1.210) to see if that makes a difference with primers flattening. If not I'm switching to rifle primers :-)

You might just want to switch to WIn or CCI small primers, Rifle primers are like magnum small pistol primers. The Federal is very soft and some flattening is normal in 40 major and isn't going to hurt any thing, 1.180-1.185 is a good length, that is what I load my 185gr bullets at with 4.7gr of WST, and I've shot many thousands with all kinds of primers with no issues. However if you start to see primer flow, better back off or go to a slower powder. Its not totally flat till the edges of the primer look higher than the edge of the brass, now that is flat, been there done that, 9 major at 185 pf.

Keep an eye on your primers when it starts getting Cold the PF goes up!

[kalaur]

I picked up some CCI rifle primers last night, but I've also got some CCI small pistol and winchester small pistol primers laying around still. I'll try all three and see if maybe I don't really need the rifle primers. As for when it starts getting cold, I'll probably end up having a 'summer' and 'winter' load for WST since its inverse temp sensitive. Talking with a few other reloaders, it does seem that many have issues with federals flattening a bit. Mine are not 'flowing' yet, so I don't think I'm on the edge of pressure issues yet. I don't have any issues with primer ignition, so using federals is probably overkill anyway. I've only got about 10k of them left, I probably will just switch to something else once their gone.

[OUshooter]

A couple things I will have never understand when this subject comes up.

1) You just barely make major PF with WST in 40cal, within professionally published data.

2) You have to keep track of seasonal loads.

3) You are better off reading tea leaves than reading primers.

4) There are other good powders that don't have WST's drawbacks.

By the very fact we reload we are probably all about tinkering, but somethings I'm not willing to tinker with. Lots of folks I shoot with run WST and make "major", so you will probably be fine.

[rinconjoe]

A couple things I will have never understand when this subject comes up.

1) You just barely make major PF with WST in 40cal, within professionally published data.

2) You have to keep track of seasonal loads.

3) You are better off reading tea leaves than reading primers.

4) There are other good powders that don't have WST's drawbacks.

By the very fact we reload we are probably all about tinkering, but somethings I'm not willing to tinker with. Lots of folks I shoot with run WST and make "major", so you will probably be fine.

so what powder do you recommend other than WST ?

[jmbaccolyte]

A couple things I will have never understand when this subject comes up.

1) You just barely make major PF with WST in 40cal, within professionally published data.

2) You have to keep track of seasonal loads.

3) You are better off reading tea leaves than reading primers.

4) There are other good powders that don't have WST's drawbacks.

By the very fact we reload we are probably all about tinkering, but somethings I'm not willing to tinker with. Lots of folks I shoot with run WST and make "major", so you will probably be fine.

With all due respect, point #1- WST works really well for me at longer than SAAMI specs (1.2" OAL length and greater).

I also take exception to your point #3. I know I'm p*ssing into the hurricane of conventional wisdom, but with everything else being equal (by that I mean, don't change variables willy-nilly and expect to learn anything), significant changes in chamber pressure are visually readable when we need them when using Federal small pistol primers in this caliber. Experience has shown that Federal small pistol primers start to get pretty flat at chamber pressures prior to SAAMI maximum for this caliber. Federal makes an excellent primer (but I hate the vast amount of space their packaging takes up compared to the other brands) and I only buy them for testing loads or during shortages when it's them or the off brands.

In regard to your point #4, I believe many of the other powders don't have as many advantages as WST for our purposes, either.

Edited June 23, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[FightFireJay]

With all due respect, point #1- WST works really well for me at longer than SAAMI specs (1.2" OAL length and greater).

I also take exception to your point #3. I know I'm p*ssing into the hurricane of conventional wisdom, but with everything else being equal (by that I mean, don't change variables willy-nilly and expect to learn anything), significant changes in chamber pressure are visually readable when we need them when using Federal small pistol primers in this caliber. Experience has shown that Federal small pistol primers start to get pretty flat at chamber pressures prior to SAAMI maximum for this caliber. Federal makes an excellent primer (but I hate the vast amount of space their packaging takes up compared to the other brands) and I only buy them for testing loads or during shortages when it's them or the off brands.

In regard to your point #4, I believe many of the other powders don't have as many advantages as WST for our purposes, either.

I am glad that WST works for you (just as I am happy to report I can cycle my semi with TrailBoss even though others can't), but let me ask for a clarification...

1. What exactly do you see as the "many advantages" that WST has over some other powders like Titegroup, Solo 1k, or Unique?

2. Do those same advantages still apply if you are limited in length to 1.150"?

3. I have read several places that reading primers with pistols cartridges is not reliable. What loads/powders have you found fed primers to show signs of pressure?

[jmbaccolyte]

1) Its cheap, burns pretty clean, recoils nicely, doesn't push the pressure limits to make major power levels like Clays, doesn't smoke as bad as Titegroup with lead bullets or require as much to do the job (or recoil as hard) as slower powders. I bought an 8 pound jug of it at a major sporting goods store for $112 at the height of the last component shortage (they found it in the storage room after I asked them to look for larger bottles than they had on display). While I don't doubt that VV N320 is better, I expect we won't find many jugs of it with a two year old price sticker on it. WST is carried by most every store that sells components, so deals are more likely, than VV N320. Some of the more experienced guys on the forum have advised that Unique will recoil more at a given power factor because it's a considerably slower powder. I've been meaning to try Solo, but I have a fair amount of WST to burn up first. The only thing that keeps me away from Titegroup is that it's supposedly the worst for smoking badly with lead bullets and I often shoot lead alloy bullets because they're cheap and I guess I'm cheap too (Montana Golds are only $.04 a bullet difference if you buy enough). Clays supposedly works really well with major loads at real long OALs and is even cleaner than WST according to some of the experts, but it's way over published data at the stock overall cartridge lengths (SAAMI OAL) at major power factor. I'd like to try Trail Boss, but I seem to remember that a one pound size can only holds 9 ounces of it, so it's probably be too expensive for my purposes.

2) You would be closer to the SAAMI pressure limits with that shorter OAL at major power factor levels, but I'd say yes.

3) In my experience, many pistol primers don't start to flatten at any of the pressures I've used in a .40, but Federal small pistol primers are the softest that I've tried and get pretty flat in the low 30K psi range. I suggest trying it yourself by sneaking up carefully on it while staying within published reloading data. Hodgdon lists starting and maximum load pressures with their loading data on their website, so it's easy to check for yourself. Take care.

Edited June 24, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[juan]

wst is so much softer than titegroup.

[Tyshoots]

WST is a great powder in the 40. My wife, Dad, and I all shoot it with poly bullets. It is very clean and soft shooting. With 3 of us shooting we have used alot of it. There might be better powders out there for the 40. But not in the same price range.

[FightFireJay]

jmbaccolyte

Thank you for being so specific, it is difficult to get many people to Quantify their statements!

I checked my three manuals and while none list WST for lead 180 gr, I can extrapolate that 170 power factor is right on the upper edge of SAAMI max for .40 S&W (okay for my M&P, but I'll pass on my Glock with its loose chamber.)

WST for jacketed looks like a no go for major, would put me well over SAAMI.

I will have to pick up some Federal SPP when I next see them. I have not had any so far, but in observing factory ammo they seem to have the least amount of primer ash!

I checked my local prices for WST AND TrailBoss, while you'd barely be able to make Minor PF with TB (lead 180 gr in .40 s&w), it wouldn't be to expensive. WST is about $1.16 per ounce and TB is about $1.41 per ounce (vv n320 is about $1.96 per ounce). Considering that you can only get about 3 gr of it into a round, it'd last you a while. 1 oz of TB would load almost 150 rounds, still under a penny per round.

YMMV

[CDPMatt]

I just made the switch from Titegroup to WST and I have to say that so far I'm very happy with it. It is quite a bit softer in recoil @ the same PF when shot side by side. On the clock I can tell that I follow the sights better. It smokes less and keeps the gun clean. I did my initial chrono tests with Federal primers and they were fine, ie. no flattening. It's available (for now) and cheap so I'll stick with it. My load at the AR section match went 942, 943, 942 at the chrono. This is 5.0gr WST @1.20" under a 180gr BBI. Gun was a 5" 2011 with a KKM bbl.

[z40acp]

Another way to keep costs down, talk to the shotgunners in your club. Most get together a least once a year and do a group buy, often with the supplier of their clay targets. WST and others are popular shotgun shell powders.

[rinconjoe]

OK did the chronograph thing today hears what i got

Powder : Winchester WST

40 cal S&W 1.125" 4.0gr wst 180gr power bond bullets FMJ

average speed was 746 littler slower than i expected

tempurature 92 degreesz with high humidity

Should i go up or leave it or change diffrent powder ,

today was benched its Glock 23 just wondering seems most manufactures speed is around 900-950 understand WST is slower velocity powder but fast clean burner ,

I will say after about 2 Pounds of WST and about 4000 rounds I had no miss feeds or miss fires , i am trying so figure out why i cant hit anything smaller than 8 inches at 20 yards seems i am not alone two other who can drill tacks at 20 yrs couldn't do with mine .

we did try ten rounds out of his clock believe 35 and he had tighter groups but still worse with my ammo .

so guess i am wondering with everyone talking about it temperature problems or sensitivity living hear in south wear the temps get 100 with about same humility makes me wonder.

so basically looking for a good clean powder and will measure good in dillion 550B and be accurate loads for 180 grain bullet with a COL 1.125". guess that about raps it up . thanks for replying .

[GForceLizard]

If you are trying to make major at the short lengths that Glocks require use Titegroup. N320, WST etc are great for 1911/2011's that can load long. If you're at 1.135" or less use Titegroup. (You might be ok with the extra speed a 6" barrel like the G24 gives.)

[CocoBolo]

If you are trying to make major at the short lengths that Glocks require use Titegroup. N320, WST etc are great for 1911/2011's that can load long. If you're at 1.135" or less use Titegroup. (You might be ok with the extra speed a 6" barrel like the G24 gives.)

Golly Gee, I was using TG loading in my CZ TS at 1.140 using 180 Zeros and Kaboom, well not really, just little annonying things like popping the top off the brass, splitting the cases etc. For shorter lengths go with a bit slower powder like WSF etc. One of my mentees was loading TG with 200's short, after I reapeatedly warned him not to do so, Grasshopper, that will blow the nuts outa ya gun, a few days later Grasshopper called, his gun was down, the trigger parts were scattered somewhere on bay 8!

Short 40 heavy bullet a bit slower powder and no need to buy a metal detector, N320, WST, and TG just about the same speed but TG tends to get spikey when pushed hard. WST doesn't meter well on some loaders, of the 3 N320 give you the most for your buck. IMHO YMMV

[GForceLizard]

Hodgdon's published load data for 180gr where 917fps is major. VihtaVouri does not publish a 180gr jacketed load for N320 (there is one for lead).

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

180 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .400" 1.125" 4.2 877 26,500 PSI 4.7 978 33,300 PSI

180 GR. HDY XTP Winchester WST .400" 1.125" 3.9 830 28,300 PSI 4.3 888 32,400 PSI

[jmbaccolyte]

Thanks, CocoBolo

[Jody Waring]

I hope I'm not drifting on this topic, but is WST not a good powder for loading .40 in a CZ tactical Sport? I have to load pretty short, so maybe I should be looking at a different powder? Good info in this thread guys

[kellymc]

I hope I'm not drifting on this topic, but is WST not a good powder for loading .40 in a CZ tactical Sport? I have to load pretty short, so maybe I should be looking at a different powder? Good info in this thread guys

Here's a pretty short load that my 11 year old daughter is shooting major with. 4.4WST, 1.125OAL with a SNS lead 180gr bullet, 942 fps from a Glock 35

[Jody Waring]

With the cast bullet I use that's right at where I need to load to with the short throat of the CZ barrel, and also the mags don' t allow me to go much longer either. Thanks for the tip!