Cylinder Binding

[Cd662]

Apologies in advance if this has been covered already in another thread. I did not uncover the answer in a search. I recently had a friend help me install the Wolff Spring kit, with the reduced main spring and the 13 pound rebound spring. We also polished my rebound slide. This noticably reduced my trigger pull! Ever since then, I've had some issues though. On a frequent-enough-to-be-a-pain basis, the cylinder binds up. I am not sure if this is the correct term, but essentially, during my double action pull I will encounter stiff resistance. It literally requires a sharp yank on the trigger to get the gun to shoot, which obviously results in a miss. This is not just mere resistance, the entire cylinder becomes frozen. I put the factory main spring back in and it seems to have more force to overcome this, but its still there. I Then replaced the 13 pound rebound spring with the 15 pound one, as the 13 pound was longer than the 15 and I was concerned about that spring binding. It seems like this did not help the situation either. My ejector rod and crane should be straight as they were repaired by Smith and Wesson only a few months ago. This issue was also happening with matching headstamp Federal brass and Federal primers seated below flush. I keep my gun clean so this is not an issue of lead accumulation, and the issue occurs even on the first stage or first time shooting the gun at the range. The only thing I can think of that would make a difference is that a revolver shooter at my range took a look at the gun and said my cylinder to forcing cone gap is virtually non existent, and that I might want to buy some shims; I thought shim usage was primarily to eliminate endshake (and tighten the gap).

Either way, after handling a bunch of other revolvers by now, I certainly would like a trigger job, but with matches coming up in August and limited options on borrowing gear, I don't want to send anything out until later in the fall. If anyone has any input, I appreciate it. As per my name, the gun is a 66-2.

[Waltermitty]

Sounds like an end shake problem to me. S&W replaced a cylinder for me and sent it back improperly spaced. Took me a month to figure out. The cylinder is moving forward and hitting the cone. All you need are some bearings to set the gap and you'll be squared away. You use the shims to set the gap properly.

[Cd662]

Thanks for the quick response. The only thing that baffles me is I don't think I had this problem before, but then again, maybe I just never noticed. Could you kindly link me to what you think I need to purchase?

[Waltermitty]

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9858/Product/CYLINDER_BEARINGS

Pick your model.

[Aglifter]

Just for grins, make sure you don't have any grit under the ejector star - it was a rather small piece, for me, but it was enough to cause that to happen to my Redhawk.

[lugnut]

I think Aglifter might have it. However here is another thing that might have been happening. With the lighter rebound spring you may not have been reseting the trigger all the way... if you don't the cylinder/trigger will effectively jam. I've had that happen. Sucks too.

[Bubber]

cd662, with not being able to see the revo in question, Waltermitty's determination of the problem may be spot on. One check you may want to do, after checking under the star////err I mean extractor as aglifter suggests, is to push the cylinder toward the forcing cone while trying to turn the cylinder. Of course gun empty and applying just enough pressure on the trigger to have the cylinder stop disengage to allow the cylinder to turn. You should e able to feel the resistance. And of course you know that if you do not release the trigger far enough when firing it will cause it to lockup because the cylinder stop has not be dropped down to allow the cylinder to turn. Hope this is helpful. Later rdd

[Cd662]

Thanks for all the replies! Bubber, I will try your suggestion tommorrow.

Lugnut - I considered this possibility but it happens when I am very slowly and intently punching paper at the range, so I know I am not short stroking. The 15 pound spring isn't THAT light, I dont imagine it wouldnt be able to reset the gun. Will keep everyone updated, again, thanks for the quick and informative replies.

[lugnut]

One other thing... if the hand and the knuckles get a burr or some crap stuck in them that too can cause an issue. I recall when I was working on my 686 that on one particular chamber I would notice occasional binding. turns out the shape of the knuckle, along with a burr was causing the problem. I used a marker to pinpoint the problem. A tiny file used very carefully and all was good.

[granderojo]

To check your cylinder to forcing cone clearence (gap). First, hold the empty gun to a light w/cylinder closed and look at the gap to see if there's any light between them. Then with the cylinder still closed, push the cylinder reaward against the blast shield and insert a feeler gage from both sides (one side at a time) and see what the actual clearence is. About .006-.010" should be good. Repeat this for each charge hole. To make the clearence larger (if the end shake is good), the barrel can be faced (cut) on the forcing cone end to get the gap to the correct clearence. By checking this, you should be able to elimate some of the possibilties.

Edited June 14, 2011 by granderojo

[okshootist]

Does this occur only during live fire? Does it occur during the first few shots or only after a few rounds have been fired? If it's inadequate cylinder gap, the binding will occur when the cylinder heats up and it's a pretty dramatic bind.

[revoman]

Apologies in advance if this has been covered already in another thread. I did not uncover the answer in a search. I recently had a friend help me install the Wolff Spring kit, with the reduced main spring and the 13 pound rebound spring. We also polished my rebound slide. This noticably reduced my trigger pull! Ever since then, I've had some issues though. On a frequent-enough-to-be-a-pain basis, the cylinder binds up. I am not sure if this is the correct term, but essentially, during my double action pull I will encounter stiff resistance. It literally requires a sharp yank on the trigger to get the gun to shoot, which obviously results in a miss. This is not just mere resistance, the entire cylinder becomes frozen. I put the factory main spring back in and it seems to have more force to overcome this, but its still there. I Then replaced the 13 pound rebound spring with the 15 pound one, as the 13 pound was longer than the 15 and I was concerned about that spring binding. It seems like this did not help the situation either. My ejector rod and crane should be straight as they were repaired by Smith and Wesson only a few months ago. This issue was also happening with matching headstamp Federal brass and Federal primers seated below flush. I keep my gun clean so this is not an issue of lead accumulation, and the issue occurs even on the first stage or first time shooting the gun at the range. The only thing I can think of that would make a difference is that a revolver shooter at my range took a look at the gun and said my cylinder to forcing cone gap is virtually non existent, and that I might want to buy some shims; I thought shim usage was primarily to eliminate endshake (and tighten the gap).

Either way, after handling a bunch of other revolvers by now, I certainly would like a trigger job, but with matches coming up in August and limited options on borrowing gear, I don't want to send anything out until later in the fall. If anyone has any input, I appreciate it. As per my name, the gun is a 66-2.

If you need a trigger job send it to Mike Carmoney and have it "Carmonized" his turn around time is usually less than 2 weeks and he is one of the best out there. Mike can probably help with the binding issue also.

[Carmoney]

If you need a trigger job send it to Mike Carmoney and have it "Carmonized" his turn around time is usually less than 2 weeks and he is one of the best out there. Mike can probably help with the binding issue also.

Thank you for the kind endorsement, Dean, however I must in good faith admit that my turnaround time is now about 6-8 weeks. My schedule will only allow me to work on a couple guns per week, and each one takes a number of hours to complete.

Cd662, the problem you are describing will probably be resolved after installing one or perhaps two .002" Ron Power endshake bearings. There are other possible issues, but that would be the place to start. Be careful taking apart and reassembling the extractor mechanism. It is very easy to bend and cross-thread stuff if you're not cautious.

[GMM50]

I would start by measuring the cylinder gap (cylinder to barrel) and Head space (loaded cylinder to frame) [uSE DUMMY ROUNDS]. As a start one of those might be too small to begin with and when in use causes a problem.

If neither of these is too tight then I would next measure end shake.

You'll need a set of feeler gauges. Keep us posted.

Edited June 14, 2011 by GMM50

[Waltermitty]

Ejector rod tool. http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/25736/catid/30/S_W_revolver_Ejector_Rod_Tool

Left hand threads.

[Cd662]

Gracious thanks again to everyone that replied. There is no light visible between the end of the cylinder and the forcing cone initially, and when holding it back towards the blast shield there is a gap. I don't have any of these gauges you guys are mentioning so no way of taking a measurement. Extractor star is clean, I can't see any burrs. To my knowledge, my ejector rod is tight, but I dont have the tool and refuse to take pliers to them. I'm going to have to see if this continues with the factory springs back in the gun, and if it continues, I guess I'll be forced to send it to someone. I know everyone on here thinks very highly of Mr. Carmoney, and I may certainly be inclined to send him my gun at a later date - this is my first serious year for IDPA, and while I'm not very good, I need my gun to shoot a lot and have some matches coming up in August, so I would not be able to swing the turn-around time at present. I also kind of wanted to do well at an event with a relatively stock gun, I would hate to feel like I did well at an event simply from an equipment advantage.

[Waltermitty]

Gracious thanks again to everyone that replied. There is no light visible between the end of the cylinder and the forcing cone initially, and when holding it back towards the blast shield there is a gap. I don't have any of these gauges you guys are mentioning so no way of taking a measurement. Extractor star is clean, I can't see any burrs. To my knowledge, my ejector rod is tight, but I dont have the tool and refuse to take pliers to them. I'm going to have to see if this continues with the factory springs back in the gun, and if it continues, I guess I'll be forced to send it to someone. I know everyone on here thinks very highly of Mr. Carmoney, and I may certainly be inclined to send him my gun at a later date - this is my first serious year for IDPA, and while I'm not very good, I need my gun to shoot a lot and have some matches coming up in August, so I would not be able to swing the turn-around time at present. I also kind of wanted to do well at an event with a relatively stock gun, I would hate to feel like I did well at an event simply from an equipment advantage.

Bring it by and I'll have it fixed by dark.

[Patrick1981]

How long time you have this revolver ?

Before changing the spring was all right?

My opinion, the springs have nothing to do

Maybe when you have replaced an ejector, S&W have installed higher ejector than the original, with the result that by not changing the length of the yoke (would be to shorten) this bind up on back..but you mentioned it bind on the forcing cone..

Or maybe they have shortened the yoke because there was new ejector (higher than the original), but having too much ejector can enter and before the cylinder hitting the forcing cone

Excuse my English, these are my guesses

[Toolguy]

Sounds to me like excessive endshake allowing the cylinder to go forward and rub on the barrel. Springs don't have anything to do with that.

[Patrick1981]

Cd662, say

"during my double action pull I will encounter stiff resistance*. It literally requires a sharp yank on the trigger to get the gun to shoot, which obviously results in a miss. This is not just mere resistance, the entire cylinder becomes frozen"

I think if there is some endshake..the cylinder not became hardly to move*, but contrary has much too gap to move

But I'm not a gunsmith, only guesses

[Cd662]

I had the chance to discuss this issue and have my gun examined by an experienced revolver shooter (bones on this forum). For the curious minded, he informed me that I can get some shims as a quick fix, but that there was indeed something wrong. I think as he phrased it, the barrel of the yoke (the portion that slides in and out of the gun and the cylinder and ejector rod go over it) needed to be stretched out. He commented that at the rate the gun was going, I would not be a ble to cycle it in the near future if I didnt do anything about it. IDPA was a mess, could hardly shoot the gun on some occassions. I will most likely be having a qualified individual try to do this work and will try to either borrow a gun from a friend or buy a new one in the meantime. I guess the springs weren't a problem, it just seemed coincidental that I noticed right after the spring change.

[Toolguy]

No need to buy another gun in the meantime. That only takes 15 minutes to fix.

[Waltermitty]

I had the chance to discuss this issue and have my gun examined by an experienced revolver shooter (bones on this forum). For the curious minded, he informed me that I can get some shims as a quick fix, but that there was indeed something wrong. I think as he phrased it, the barrel of the yoke (the portion that slides in and out of the gun and the cylinder and ejector rod go over it) needed to be stretched out. He commented that at the rate the gun was going, I would not be a ble to cycle it in the near future if I didnt do anything about it. IDPA was a mess, could hardly shoot the gun on some occassions. I will most likely be having a qualified individual try to do this work and will try to either borrow a gun from a friend or buy a new one in the meantime. I guess the springs weren't a problem, it just seemed coincidental that I noticed right after the spring change.

I won't dispute the diagnosis that the yoke should be stretched, but some of us don't think a gun is setup properly unless the assembly includes at least one shim. It is an opinion that for a competition gun that will see a lot of use that the shim(s) act as a bearing and can reduce friction effects somewhat, but more importantly, can take the wear of use so that the yoke doesn't have to be repeatedly stretched. I consider shims to be a final fine tuning of my setup, and have had to change out shims as they wear.

Just something to consider as you solve your problem.

[Bones]

I agree shims are a great, easy fix for most end shake issues.

Cd662's 66 is a very mature, experienced gun. I'm sure it could tell a lot of interesting stories. In addition to being too short, the yoke is not square and needs to be reamed. His ejector rod is also bent. Shims alone won't fix his problem. He was not comfortable squaring/reaming the yoke or straightening the ejector rod himself.

Since he wanted a variety of other work done as well, he concluded finding a competent gunsmith to address all his needs and simultaneously purchasing a functional identical twin was the best, workable solution for him. He needs a functional gun now.

Knowing him and seeing his 66 in person, it was hard to disagree with his logic.

I also tried to his assuage his fears of having his immortal soul ravaged by the ghastly leviathan of guilt that accompanies using rule-compliant, optimized equipment for each sport, but that is a moral beast he is still wrestling with.

Craig

Edited June 15, 2011 by Bones

[lugnut]

I also tried to his assuage his fears of having his immortal soul ravaged by the ghastly leviathan of guilt that accompanies using rule-compliant, optimized equipment for each sport, but that is a moral beast he is still wrestling with.

Damn- that is a mouth full! I thought you were an engineer? You should write books!