The Myth of The 9 in 1 Gun Being Best for IDPA

[Mayonaise]

Joe,

"You can fool some of the people some of the time", as the saying goes. Didn't fool a certain someone with the "ghost" reload though. He nicely chose not to bust you out in front of your girlfriend.

[Joe D]

OK, I am stupid. Just what is a ghost reload?

[Sgtsvi]

I have seen the ghost reload done a couple of times. During a RWR you pull the mag and appear to stow the mag and grab your spare. The ghost or phantom load is when you never let go of the original mag and put it back into your gun and start shooting.

[geezer-lock]

If I may re-adjust for the thread drift here:

Ron’s opinion was that the use of a .40 or 9MM single-stack would not be a good “game gun” choice just because you wind up with an EVEN number of rounds if you are fully topped off (9+1). I agree that mag capacity is hardly an issue here.

I have seen numerous arguments FOR this choice, but they were predicated on the notion that a single-stack (read 1911) trigger would be a significant advantage as would the ability to load down the .40. I see this same argument in favor of .38 Super. A soft shooting load with a super trigger, in an all-steel frame might be the ultimate IDPA ESP choice. In addition, there are 10 round mags available for this combo. This might put some life in the used .38 super market.

Be safe, have fun,

geezer

[Joe D]

I have shot both a 9mm SA and a .40 Kimber in IDPA. The .40 Kimber just seemed to shoot a little softer and be more reliable than the 9mm SA. I used some cheap KRD .45 mags that would hold 10 rounds of .40 and still fit into the box.

I think there is little, if any, advantage starting a stage with an even number of rounds in the gun. I thought back over the last couple of matches I shot and 99% of the stages had either 2 to the body 1 to the head, a popper in the first mag, stage that required only 6 in the gun or a specified tac/RWR reload. There have been too many stages that I was glad I had that one more round at the end of the stage.

SgtGlock, if that is what a "ghost reload" is then the person should have been DQ, not just given a FTDR. Maybe IDPA should not allow hi-cap mags to be used. If only 10 rounders were allowed then no ghost reloads could occur. The downside is some Glock 10 rd mags make it very difficult for those stages where you start with the gun on a table with the mag in, but nothing in the chamber. It is almost impossible to rack the slide.

Mark, I think that "certain someone" got his ego bruised when she ignored his flirts and did not "fawn" over him like most of the other females have. The alleged ghost reload issue has been resolved. Did not happen.

[ron durham]

Well, it was a good thread, a lot of good info. Got off track a little bit. All I can say Joe, I wouldn't dump rounds to gain a slide lock reload and I know people do it and it is hard to catch them.

Ron Durham

[Joe D]

Ron, my very first post on this thread was to do two things, get a little "rise" out of some of the Bill Wilson faithful followers and secondly to point out the unenforceability (is that a word?) of some of the rules.

As stated before it is impossible to enforce the extra shot/dumping rule. Why have a rule that cannot be enforced?

I was asked by the area rep. for some input on the new LGB. This was one of the rules, IMO, that needed to be deleted.

[Larrys1911]

I appreciate someone taking the time to differentiate between the Ghost and Phantom reloads, however please don't take offense that I will use Ghost to describe them both.

I see no reason to differentiate between the two. They are both illegal, in both sports (IDPA & IPSC)

If I catch someone doing it, I will spend some time trying to figure out how many PEs I can give them on top of the TWO FTDRs. I think I can make it almost 50 seconds depending on the CoF instructions, and MAYBE I can even DQ em!

Probably not worth the 1 second (MAYBE) gain!

Larry P

[Joe D]

I doubt it would even be a 1 sec. advantage. A good RWR can be done in 2.1-2.3 seconds with cover.

[Larrys1911]

Joe,

Please explain why dumping ONE is ok but two or more is not.

Because its hard to call doesnt make it OK to do it.

If you remove that rule you may as well allow speedloads (NOT that that would be a bad thing IMO as they are just as "Tactical" as any other.

Larry P

[Larrys1911]

I doubt it would even be a 1 sec. advantage. A good RWR can be done in 2.1-2.3 seconds with cover.

OH, they can be done quite a bit faster than that!

A good TL can be done in under 2 seconds!

Larry P

[GRD]

If I shoot a stage that has 5 targets that get 2 each, then a reload and more targets I just put 3 rounds in one of the first 5 targets. Takes all of .16 seconds for the third round.

Ron, my very first post on this thread was to do two things, get a little "rise" out of some of the Bill Wilson faithful followers and secondly to point out the unenforceability (is that a word?) of some of the rules.

So, you were just kidding about dumping the third round to get to the reload thing? Good one.

- Gabe

[Duane Thomas]

Maybe IDPA should not allow hi-cap mags to be used.

They don't.

If only 10 rounders were allowed then no ghost reloads could occur.

I'm missing the logic here. Ghost reloads occur - when they occur - because of low mag capacity. If we could could use high cap mags, a reload of any sort would rarely be necessary, with the round count of any IDPA stage limited to 18 rounds. Start with an 18-round Glock 17, don't miss - ever (it's GOOD to be superhuman) - and you're golden.

[Flexmoney]

Duane,

Since when aren't hicap mags allowed? (I gotta get to IDPA matches more often). Are you saying I can't use a standard capacity G17 mag, loaded down to ten rounds?

[Nik Habicht]

Kyle,

Yeah, you can --- just don't fill it all the way up and attempt a ghost reload....

[mcoliver]

Ok now I'm curious. I understood ghost reload to need a higher than legal mag capacity but my question is "what happened to the spare mag?" Stowed after inserting the (still) original mag? Wouldn't that be even slower?

[Joe D]

Last Saturday one of my friends and I were going over some of the things we needed to look out for as ROs at the upcoming Al. State Championship Match. He stated one of the things was a ghost reload. First time I had ever heard of that. Guess I lead a sheltered life. He explained that some guys from South America had used it during the Fla. Match and were DQ'd as they should have been. If you use a hi-cap I will check your mag before you put it in your gun on my stage.

If you use a hi-cap mag to avoid the Barney Mag issue then you probably should show the RO at each stage your mag has 11 rounds in it. USPSA's original Production class rule did not allow the use of any mag that would hold over 10 rounds. They have since changed that rule to read something like "No mag can have more that 10 rounds in it after the start command". They probably should have left the rule like it was.

Duane, they can be used, but only with 11 rounds to start a stage with. Does away with the Barney mag. It is a time saver at the "Load and make ready" point.

Larry, wish I could do a TL. I have too many thumbs. I have some friends that can do a RWR in under 2 sec. Mine run in the 2.1 - 2.3 range during a match even if I stow the mag in my belt rather than a pocket. Guess I need to lose some weight.

I wish they would get rid of the "speed reload" rule. I have found myself in the position of being at cover with one round left in my gun and needing to do a reload. So I have to remove the tactically useless empty mag and stow it to complete my reload. Dumb rule. I think in the real world we would all just drop that mag and stick in another.

The very first paragraph in the LGB states "Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated real world self-defense scenarios."

Two things stand out in that paragraph, "real world" and "full charge service ammo". OK time to come clean. How many of us that shoot a .40 in SSP or ESP use "full charge service ammo"? Does that make all of us that don't shoot a .40 at a 165 PF "gamers". Most, if not all .40 "full charge service ammo" is at least a 165 PF. I have pushed for years to have different PFs per caliber or have major and minor scoring in IDPA.

Now let me apologize to the moderators for drifting this post off it's original subject. I think most of the topics touched on were good.

BTW one more thing that should not be allowed is letting a shooter fill up his hi-cap mag during the Classifier Match to make the stages run faster. This is adding weight to the gun which is not legal.

[John Forsyth]

Hey Joe, in some local club matches, I shoot a Colt Delta 10mm making 180PF in ESP.

But in sanctioned matches, I will always shoot a .45 in CDP because BW will not let me shoot my 10mm in CDP.

[Joe D]

John, there are two shooters I take my hat off to. One is an IDPA shooter in Atlanta, Lester R. and the other is a guy here in Alabama named Rory. Lester and Rory both shoot full power factory .45ACP loads from true carry rigs. I have accused Lester of not having a holster, but a skin flap that he puts his 1911 in. His draw is very fast. Rory uses a Commander or smaller sized 1911 for IDPA.

There is another Al. shooter, Larry, that I would want on my side in a gun fight. He is a left handed shooter that uses a true left handed 1911. He is very, very fast out of the holster. Once again he uses a real carry holster.

[Larrys1911]

How many of us that shoot a .40 in SSP or ESP use "full charge service ammo"? Does that make all of us that don't shoot a .40 at a 165 PF "gamers".

Yes, as does using something other than what you carry in something other than what you carry it in, under something you dont use for CCW. True gamers- or competitors I guess.

sorry I couldnt resist.

I think the PF thing is fine. If I want to try and run against downloaded 9mm and 40s with my 175 PF 40s I can, if I want to see what happens if I download to 9mm levels with my 40 I can. Your call, do what you want, you may find you should be shooting a 9mm for your carry gun. If you want to be competitive and shoot 175 PF 40s Im sure you can because I have. But if you want to see if you can run with the big Dawgs runing PF ammo......get with it....Most cant.

Larry P

[Larrys1911]

John

Larry P

[Joe D]

Larry, I certainly don't know any of the Big Dawgs that shoot full power loads. I admit I very rarely shoot my carry gun (Glock23) in competition. When I do I use my normal IPSC Major load and carry holster. I normally shoot a Glock35 at a 140-145 PF. I have seen some shoot a gun that while legal should not be allowed in IDPA.

Once again thanks to the moderators for keeping this thread open as it has had some really good and lively discussions.

[Larrys1911]

Larry, I certainly don't know any of the Big Dawgs that shoot full power loads. I admit I very rarely shoot my carry gun (Glock23) in competition. When I do I use my normal IPSC Major load and carry holster. I normally shoot a Glock35 at a 140-145 PF. I have seen some shoot a gun that while legal should not be allowed in IDPA.

Once again thanks to the moderators for keeping this thread open as it has had some really good and lively discussions.

At the level we are shooting (refering to common Self defense calibers in duty weapons) I dont think PF is as big a deal as some people make it.

JMO

Larry P

[Joe D]

Maybe Larry, but when I see guys shooting 9mm and .40 1911s at a 126 PF it makes me wonder. These guns have no recoil.

Joe

[rhino]

I use the same .45ACP FMJ ammo for USPSA/IPSC as I do for IDPA, steel, NRA Action, etc. Most of it makes about 185 PF (Armscor) in my gun, but the other stuff is 190 (IMI).