Trick of the day Bill drill

[Steve Anderson]

It has to be defined in the individual stage description, right?

The only time I've been warned is once I had a thumb touching the holster (not really intentionally, just kinda landed there) and Flex didn't start me. No problem at all.

I am really enjoying this civilized discussion, BTW.

Bryant,

Upon further reflection, at a major I probly would just comply and start. I did start every hands at sides draw just like this (shoulder UP) at the AL match and never heard a peep.

I was just thinking about the mental effects of a big hullabulloo on start position on a big stage and I probly would let it go at a big match. A few hundredths of draw on a field course isn't worth a reduced mental focus.

L2S,

Thank you for your comments, I had not even considered that anything about that start position might be hinky legally. If I need to make an adjustment for compliance I can do that...I just still believe I am in compliance.

Any CRO's care to comment?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Hmmm, interesting problem. Is the shooter truly relaxed? If he is, he may have a shoulder problem, a sprung elbow, or something else that keeps his arms bent who knows? I'd say if you stand like that normally, yes. If you don't, then no. In most cases I wouldn't worry about it even if I noticed it.

My problem with starts is my build. Long arms, high waist, and discernable waistline. When I stand relaxed, the inside of my forearm touches the grips. I've had ROs caution me about touching the gun at the start. I usually just shrug and say "That's the way my arms hang off my shoulders." If they insist, then I make a point to pull my arm out an inch so it isn't touching. However, at that point I'm not standing relaxed. (Oh, the irony.)

We're all built differently, so we have to as RO's make allowances.

[Steve Anderson]

I neglected to answer L2S' question about the end of match bill drill scenario...and I thought about quite a bit.

The one in the vid was done after an hour of practice on the stage o'month so I was definitely warmed up.

The 1.52 down zero is a 19.7368 HF

The one I shot right after was 1.42 (.68 draw) down 2 for a 19.7183 HF so the first one was still better.

If it was the last stage of a big match I would adopt the exact same start position and shoot what I saw, with no thought to time whatever.

I know too well the results of trying to burn down a speed shoot. I now look at them as opputunities to maintain my current match placement by shooting them solid.

Eric G says it in his vid on a 40 point stage "nothing to gain, 40 points to lose"

Mini mart at the AL was a great example of this question It was a speed shoot, it was the last stage, and I had a good solid (not spectacular but consistent) match to protect. The last thing I was going to do was smack a no-shoot. So, I visualized it beautifullyand shot it smooth and clean.

My intent is posting the Bill drill vid was to show that strong hand/shoulder refinement at the standby can have good results. The arm/hand is less important than having the shoulder in it's freestyle position placement or as close as possible.

SA

[BigDave]

no matter - Steve, that was flat hauling a$$!!! Someday...

[Loves2Shoot]

Great answer Steve, that's why I ask, for the benefit of the guys/gals who have no clue that the ONLY way to go THAT FAST and get your points is to react to your vision. I had horror visions of people trying to duplicate what you can do without realizing that you actually can see that fast. I know that's what I would have tried to do a year ago, wasting time and $ and getting really nowhere.

[BSeevers]

I can do 1.5X's and have tried both type start positions. Neither is a end all, be all. I am also an old fart and have been to well over 100 majors. I have been cautioned by RO's to "change" my start position(not just hands) quite a few times, most were range Nazi's in the older days, boy could I tell you stories, so I changed all my practice to relaxed in the meaning of "relaxed", like some are defending in these posts.

Can't ask me to change at the start, which I agree with Bryant's point that it is a distraction. I feel this is probably a better way to practice for big matches. Sort of like keeping it under 65 means you can't get pulled over for speeding. Now I am VERY much a GAMER but went through this start position argument many years ago and came up with this stragedy.

Now if we are allowed to start shoulders up every time then maybe I would. If the Egret Stance was allowed I am sure I would find a use for it. Experience says it will be not allowed sometimes, so I'll not do it. I only hope its called consistant by the RO.

[Storm]

It has to be defined in the individual stage description, right?

No, it doesn't. At least that's how I've seen similar things handled at the Nationals. (I've been to several.) It's quite possible that the stage description will be clarified as the match goes on. Consistency is the key. If the RO has not allowed a particular action to this point, it's possible they will change the stage description to strictly forbid that action.

If the RO/CRO did say, "Sorry, but you can't do that", you can argue it to the RM. The first question the RM will ask the RO is "Have you allowed anyone else to do it this way?". If the RO says no, you're probably gonna lose. The RM will politely tell you that you must do what the RO says. At least that's the way I've seen similar issues handled in the past.

[BDH]

Steve,

For the most part, I would agree with Kath... I would start you without a challenge. The only difference would be that after I called 'Range is Clear', I would have bowed down to worship the performance.

Amazing...

[Flexmoney]

To shoot a Bill Drill fast and accurately, you can't have a whole lot of tension running thru the body/mind.

Any "trick of the day" ought to be helpful to reduce that tension.

If it makes eveybody feel better, I'll make Steve try 3 times to comply with the start position the next time I run him (just to mess with him). But, I've ran him while he has shot a clean 1.55 Bill Drill with his Production holster and gun.

Reduce tension...have the vision turned on.

(meanwhile...we are all talking about this...Steve is likely practicing )

[BDH]

meanwhile...we are all talking about this...Steve is likely practicing

Which of course is why HE is a GM and I am not!! Nuff said!

[Shooter Grrl]

Any CRO's care to comment?

What am I, chopped liver? Ok ok ok ok - I'm not technically a CRO, yet but my word oughta count for something, eh?

[Steve Anderson]

Sorry SG, I didn't realize your credentials.

My bad,

SA

[markm]

Steve, fantastic run! I can't shoot a sub 2 starting with my hand on the gun! Start position looks good to me any day of the week.

[paraman1]

If you think thats a tense looking start you are going to crap yourselves when you see Rich Redovian in a relaxed at sides position . We are goibng to have to build a tensionometer into all timers to solve this one .

[mcoliver]

Holy cow! Smokin'!

And now that one issue is Steve's hand position, I just realized a gamey way to start with briefcase on hand at sides (plus after watchiug Eric G's vids a million times already). It may help to speed the draw with the hands closer to the gun..

...not that the extra time off the draw will actually guarantee me a win...

[Ron Ankeny]

I just saw the video and now I am really confused. The very issue of the hands at sides starting position came up in my RO class last spring. The instructor, Jay Worden, told us a position like Steve's was akin to creeping and would not be allowed. Which is it, legal or not???

[Loves2Shoot]

Maybe that would be a good question for Amidon in the next Front Site, at least it seems the NROI guys are giving the same story, it is a no no.

[Jim Norman]

As an RO, I have a lot less trouble determining "Hands Relaxed at sides" than I do with what is meant by "Surrender" or "Both hands above respective shoulders"

I've seen both with the shooter so twisted that he looks like he is in agony from severe cramps.

I personally like starts that are harder to "Game" Both hands flat on "X's" or "Feet flat on ground, both hands on X's" Then everyone starts from the same position. The hands relaxed at sides and the Surrender position starts need a real definition to allow the same start if we really care, or we need to simply allow the shooter to put his hands in what he assumes to be correct and go with it.

same goes for "Seated in chair" now we all know that seated like a 8th grader on the last day of school waitning for the bell is not what was meant, but shooters assume that as long as their butt is touching the chair, they are good to go. I like Feet Flat on Floor, Back against the backrest, hands on knees, description. Again everyone is in the same position to start this way.

Jim Norman

[BDH]

Jim,

I hear ya and hate to have to interpret, but as we both know nothing is ever perfect. I will admit that I do find start positions where the shooter is trying to game the hand position, think through a complex stage, and gradually lean forward, very interesting. What's interesting is that they are trying to balance several things, and if they do not do everything exactly right, they either end up falling out of the box and having to start over (OR they are off balance when the start signal goes..... )

Not trying to be difficult, but the start position IS the start position. Kyle is surely going to jump in on this because we never settled our bet from last year about how he could 'always anticipate' the RO and the timer (I call that 'Super Flex Zen'). I say, let's settle this on the range!

PS. I learned my 'timer control' from a wise old RangeMaster who taught me to never use the RANDOM setting, but always to use the INSTANT setting....

[Ron Ankeny]

The description that we asked Jay about was on a classifier and it reads, "...with both arms hanging relaxed at sides." I suppose that's different than, "...hands relaxed at sides."

[mcoliver]

I personally like starts that are harder to "Game" Both hands flat on "X's" or "Feet flat on ground, both hands on X's" Then everyone starts from the same position. The hands relaxed at sides and the Surrender position starts need a real definition to allow the same start if we really care, or we need to simply allow the shooter to put his hands in what he assumes to be correct and go with it.

Not having enough match experience, I finally understand why about 90% of all stages I've shot and seen have such a requirement. Before this, I've always wondered why there aren't enough stages that allowed me to show off my ultra-fast draw (from countless hours of dry practice from my solid start position.) Time to revise the dry fire regime.

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

We have a Steel match at C-ville this Saturday (should be dry and sunny).

I'd love to have you run the timer for me for 50 draws (we do reshoots).

(But, for accuracy/clarity...please show me where I said I could "always anticipate".)

[uscbigdawg]

Steve,

I'd start you as you were and if I were CRO and/or RM, I'd have a stern discussion with my RO for not starting you. Is there an advantage? Maybe. But how many of us have seen folks take a perceived advantage and crash & burn? I say, if it "satisfies" the course description, game on. If you want to try and bend the line, go for it, and if you go up in flames, I'm going to point and laugh!

Besides, if Shooter Grrl said it was alright, that's huge! (Kat, we all miss you and David out here. See you in July!)

Oh...and Steve....SMOKIN' RUN!!!

Rich

[Jim Norman]

Having said: "I personally like starts that are harder to "Game" Both hands flat on "X's" or "Feet flat on ground, both hands on X's" Then everyone starts from the same position. The hands relaxed at sides and the Surrender position starts need a real definition to allow the same start if we really care, or we need to simply allow the shooter to put his hands in what he assumes to be correct and go with it."

If a shooters hands are at his sides and the start is "hands at or hands relaxed at sides", I am going to start the shooter. I too have seen many try to game a start to the point that they crash and burn.

Most all RO's that I know, and I use the instant start on the timer. When a shooter creeps after stand-by, we just hold, the shooter then returns to the proper position and at the exact moment that he does is when he is most likely going to get the signal. Usually they stop creeping after that.

As to specific start positions that are enforceable, It has been my position to attempt in most cases, especially at local matches to do what was intended of me as to position and engagement. I don't shoot through a knothole because I can see a target. If two walls are not tight and it obviously not a port, I don't use it. It is after all a CLUB Match, now, if I were at a large match and thought that that would help, and the instruction was shoot'em as you see'em, I would.

But back to Start Positions, I suppose that if you want a specific start position, then you have to be specific. Surrender generally means hands over shoulders. You could use a lot of words and say: "With upper arms extended straight out to the sides and arms bent 90 degrees at the elbow, pointing straight up"

I've seen: Hands above respective shoulders, Surrender position, Arms extended straight up over your head. For arms relaxed at sides, I've seen: Arms hanging straight down, arms hanging relaxed, hands relaxed at sides. The more specific you get the less gaming there is in the start, but you have to be careful. If you are very specific, you have to be sure the specifics are enforced. Hands at sides is easy, they either are or aren't. A more specific instruction is actually open to more interpretation.

All this having been said, Grandmaster stands easily looking for all the world like an accountant, one hand up in front of him almost Jack Benny like, the other across his mid-section below the elbow of the first. I have seen other masters attempt to break through this relaxed guard and with apparent movement they are on the ground and Grandmaster is standing there asking if that was the move that they intended. He stands relaxed in an unassuming position, that is what we should be striving for, a natural position from which our movement is explosively fast. He is not tense, he does not "Get Ready" he "Is Ready" but he is relaxed.

Jim Norman

[GRD]

He stands relaxed in an unassuming position, that is what we should be striving for, a natural position from which our movement is explosively fast. He is not tense, he does not "Get Ready" he "Is Ready" but he is relaxed.

That needed repeating.

- Gabe