Single Stack + table starts

[want2race]

[ChuckS]

Having watched The Ten Commandments the other night, we are sort of like the folks at the foot of the Mount. We are waiting on Moses to come down and tell us what the real rules are. I have never seen John Amidon with white hair and a beard, but who knows.........

There are 15 commandments in the Mel Brooks version

[Thomas H]

If 5.2.4 prohibits carrying a mag in your hand or mouth, then it needs to be changed. Yesterday.

I've been reading this with some bemusement, because prior to this discussion, it had never occurred to me that carrying a magazine while moving or shooting would be in any way against the rules unless it was specifically disallowed by the WSB.

Among other things, I have that attitude partially because I clearly recall the Area 3 match a couple of years ago wherein the entire Production Super Squad (who had a tabletop empty start, with all mags starting on barrels/table) ran around with one in the gun and one in their hand clasped to the gun shooting 2-handed instead of taking the time to stuff one in a mag pouch.

Anyway....after reading how some people really _would_ apparently call that as against the rules, I wrote DNROI regarding this situation. His response seemed rather bemused that it would be a problem, or that it would in any way be against the rules. (That may be my projection upon his response, though.) Here is what he said:

I wrote:

On the BrianEnos forums (unsurprisingly) there has been a recently discussion regarding the legality of moving and/or shooting with a magazine in hand while doing so.

My question set:

***1) As long as the WSB does not specifically prohibit it, is it legal to move about the stage during a course of fire with a magazine in hand? (This is under the assumption that at the start signal, the magazine was originally in a legal place such as a mag pouch, or on a table or barrel as stated in the WSB.)

***2) As long as the WSB does not specifically prohibit it, is it legal to shoot during a course of while holding a magazine in hand, whether shooting one-handed with the magazine in the other, or two-handed bracing the magazine against the firearm?

Rule 5.2.4 says: During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

Which I suppose leads to question 3:

***3) If the answers to questions 1 and 2 above are "no", then does that mean 5.2.4 allows both moving and shooting with a magazine in hand IF the WSB specifically allows such?

I admit, until the argument started, it hadn't occurred to me that it would be illegal at all under any circumstances unless the WSB specifically prohibited it.

Plus, I know I've seen plenty of people holding a magazine while shooting (on stages where magazines are staged initially on barrels and such) at Area and Sectional matches (watching the entire Production Super Squad at Area 3 do this a couple of years ago comes to mind).

However, many people are quoting directly from 5.2.4 saying that if you aren't in the processing of reloading, and have a magazine in your hand, it is thus "stored" ---particularly if you are holding a magazine while shooting.

Like I said, I hadn't thought this was an issue---but if these people are potentially going to levy sanctions at some Area match I'd like to know if this is legal or not.

Thank you.

....to which he replied:

Tom,

If the written stage briefing states that all ammo is on a table or barrel, obviously it cannot be in the mag pouches, if you shoot your gun dry and have to do a reload while moving, is the mag not in the pouch as you have removed it to do the reload.

If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

As far as WSB being involved, I have seen WSB that specifically prohibited that and I think that can be enforced under 5.2.4.

Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF.

John

It seems clear to me that you can indeed move and shoot through a course of fire even if you have a magazine in your hand as long as this is not specifically disallowed by the WSB. (Obviously the mag had to start in a legal position.) Between "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all": and "there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF" it seems straightforward to me.

I know that prior to this discussion, unless specifically prohibited by the WSB, it would not have occurred to me to consider it against the rules. After reading this, upon reflection, and with DNROI's response in mind, I am going to retain that opinion as I work matches.

[want2race]

Johns response is exactly how I feel about it. It is freestyle after all. When was this communication?

[Thomas H]

Johns response is exactly how I feel about it. It is freestyle after all. When was this communication?

Yep. Just how I felt, too.

Received his email reply 4:58 pm today. I plan on keeping a copy with me.

(Yes, I know his email ISN'T an official ruling. However, his phrasing of "there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF" is a rather good argument, isn't it? Along with the "it is Freestyle after all". Did anyone else hear the unvoiced "Duh!" from him at that part?)

[Gary Stevens]

So how does this address the issue under discussion? All mags on the table, start signal, I have to move to another location, I am shooting SS or Production, now what?

[want2race]

Pulled from above quote: "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

also: "As far as WSB being involved, I have seen WSB that specifically prohibited that and I think that can be enforced under 5.2.4."

To me, that reads as guidance that would allow (rules don't prohibit) a shooter grabbing all desired mags from table and running with them in hand until needed (loaded into gun). That is unless the WSB specifically prohibits it. I think the wording would have to be very specific in the WSB to not allow running with mags.

[Thomas H]

Pulled from above quote: "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

also: "As far as WSB being involved, I have seen WSB that specifically prohibited that and I think that can be enforced under 5.2.4."

To me, that reads as guidance that would allow (rules don't prohibit) a shooter grabbing all desired mags from table and running with them in hand until needed (loaded into gun). That is unless the WSB specifically prohibits it. I think the wording would have to be very specific in the WSB to not allow running with mags.

Precisely. The magazines all start wherever they are supposed to, according the rulebook and WSB. (Whether table, in mag pouch, barrel---whatever.) After the start signal, unless the WSB specifically disallows it (for example, stage 2 at the 2010 Prod Nats disallowed it--I remember it clearly, for very unfortunate reasons) if you want to take all of your mags and carry them in your hands as you move and shoot through the course of fire, you may.

So, in answer to:

So how does this address the issue under discussion? All mags on the table, start signal, I have to move to another location, I am shooting SS or Production, now what?

If you have to move: the mags can be in the gun, in your (correctly positioned) mag pouches, in your hands as long as the WSB does not specifically disallow it, or left on the table.

[Skydiver]

Pulled from above quote: "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

also: "As far as WSB being involved, I have seen WSB that specifically prohibited that and I think that can be enforced under 5.2.4."

To me, that reads as guidance that would allow (rules don't prohibit) a shooter grabbing all desired mags from table and running with them in hand until needed (loaded into gun). That is unless the WSB specifically prohibits it. I think the wording would have to be very specific in the WSB to not allow running with mags.

Precisely. The magazines all start wherever they are supposed to, according the rulebook and WSB. (Whether table, in mag pouch, barrel---whatever.) After the start signal, unless the WSB specifically disallows it (for example, stage 2 at the 2010 Prod Nats disallowed it--I remember it clearly, for very unfortunate reasons) if you want to take all of your mags and carry them in your hands as you move and shoot through the course of fire, you may.

So, in answer to:

So how does this address the issue under discussion? All mags on the table, start signal, I have to move to another location, I am shooting SS or Production, now what?

If you have to move: the mags can be in the gun, in your (correctly positioned) mag pouches, in your hands as long as the WSB does not specifically disallow it, or left on the table.

And what about holding the mag in your mouth? Or under armpits?

[Steven Cline]

If 5.2.4 prohibits carrying a mag in your hand or mouth, then it needs to be changed. Yesterday.

I've been reading this with some bemusement, because prior to this discussion, it had never occurred to me that carrying a magazine while moving or shooting would be in any way against the rules unless it was specifically disallowed by the WSB.

Among other things, I have that attitude partially because I clearly recall the Area 3 match a couple of years ago wherein the entire Production Super Squad (who had a tabletop empty start, with all mags starting on barrels/table) ran around with one in the gun and one in their hand clasped to the gun shooting 2-handed instead of taking the time to stuff one in a mag pouch.

Anyway....after reading how some people really _would_ apparently call that as against the rules, I wrote DNROI regarding this situation. His response seemed rather bemused that it would be a problem, or that it would in any way be against the rules. (That may be my projection upon his response, though.) Here is what he said:

I wrote:

On the BrianEnos forums (unsurprisingly) there has been a recently discussion regarding the legality of moving and/or shooting with a magazine in hand while doing so.

My question set:

***1) As long as the WSB does not specifically prohibit it, is it legal to move about the stage during a course of fire with a magazine in hand? (This is under the assumption that at the start signal, the magazine was originally in a legal place such as a mag pouch, or on a table or barrel as stated in the WSB.)

***2) As long as the WSB does not specifically prohibit it, is it legal to shoot during a course of while holding a magazine in hand, whether shooting one-handed with the magazine in the other, or two-handed bracing the magazine against the firearm?

Rule 5.2.4 says: During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

Which I suppose leads to question 3:

***3) If the answers to questions 1 and 2 above are "no", then does that mean 5.2.4 allows both moving and shooting with a magazine in hand IF the WSB specifically allows such?

I admit, until the argument started, it hadn't occurred to me that it would be illegal at all under any circumstances unless the WSB specifically prohibited it.

Plus, I know I've seen plenty of people holding a magazine while shooting (on stages where magazines are staged initially on barrels and such) at Area and Sectional matches (watching the entire Production Super Squad at Area 3 do this a couple of years ago comes to mind).

However, many people are quoting directly from 5.2.4 saying that if you aren't in the processing of reloading, and have a magazine in your hand, it is thus "stored" ---particularly if you are holding a magazine while shooting.

Like I said, I hadn't thought this was an issue---but if these people are potentially going to levy sanctions at some Area match I'd like to know if this is legal or not.

Thank you.

....to which he replied:

Tom,

If the written stage briefing states that all ammo is on a table or barrel, obviously it cannot be in the mag pouches, if you shoot your gun dry and have to do a reload while moving, is the mag not in the pouch as you have removed it to do the reload.

If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

As far as WSB being involved, I have seen WSB that specifically prohibited that and I think that can be enforced under 5.2.4.

Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF.

John

It seems clear to me that you can indeed move and shoot through a course of fire even if you have a magazine in your hand as long as this is not specifically disallowed by the WSB. (Obviously the mag had to start in a legal position.) Between "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all": and "there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF" it seems straightforward to me.

I know that prior to this discussion, unless specifically prohibited by the WSB, it would not have occurred to me to consider it against the rules. After reading this, upon reflection, and with DNROI's response in mind, I am going to retain that opinion as I work matches.

Really glad to hear this is the DNROI's take. I think way the rules are written leads to a different conclusion. As posted above, the rule ought to be officially clarified.

[steel1212]

You know what you guys are doing right? Your giving MD ideas on how to wright up WSB so that you have to place the mags where they want you to place them after the start.

[want2race]

That's ok though, because then it's clearly stated in the WSB. Follow that...no bump to Open.

This also clearifies that you may grab the mag(s) off the table and run down range WHILE attempting to stow them. There is no 'line in the sand' that you can't cross before the mags are stowed while shooting the course of fire. Unless the WSB states otherwise. If you want the mags stowed prior to movement, have the shooter carry an ammo can somewhere with the weak hand. Commons sense says you'll need to stow mags prior to carrying the can anywhere. Or better yet, mags must be INSIDE ammo can. Oooooh, no I didn't....

[mhs]

That's ok though, because then it's clearly stated in the WSB. Follow that...no bump to Open.

I don't think that the WSB supersedes division requirements.

[Gary Stevens]

Well this is all very interesting as it is exactly opposite what I understood him to tell me directly before the Battle in the Bluegrass.

I also think some are jumping over this part of the answer...."is the mag not in the pouch as you have removed it to do the reload."

Now I read that to say you have placed the mag in the pouch, which is legally positioned, and then decided to remove it and carry it in your hand, and not in the pouch. If that is the reading, I agree. If not I am confused, which sometimes happens.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[JAFO]

I was a little confused by that part, and can only come to the conclusion that he is referring to two separate instances - 1) mags start on table, you can carry them with you; and 2) is this not the same as if mags were in pouches and you had to remove one to use it?

If you started with all mags in your pouches, then decided to pull two of them and hold them between your fingers as you ran the course, I'd assume by the opinion above that this would be legal. Not advantageous, but freestyle and legal. If you can do that, you should be able to pick them up from a table/barrel (if that's the WSB ammo starting position) and run with them. In both cases, the mags were legally placed, either per the WSB or Division rules, prior to the start signal.

Edited April 29, 2011 by JAFO

[Gary Stevens]

I was a little confused by that part, and can only come to the conclusion that he is referring to two separate instances - 1) mags start on table, you can carry them with you; and 2) is this not the same as if mags were in pouches and you had to remove one to use it?

If you started with all mags in your pouches, then decided to pull two of them and hold them between your fingers as you ran the course, I'd assume by the opinion above that this would be legal. Not advantageous, but freestyle and legal. If you can do that, you should be able to pick them up from a table/barrel (if that's the WSB ammo starting position) and run with them. In both cases, the mags were legally placed, either per the WSB or Division rules, prior to the start signal.

I am having trouble with picking up a bunch of mags from a table and running with them being OK in SS and Production, but placing an empty stripper mag in a front pocket moves you to open. Somewhere along the line that doesn't seem to make sense to me, and then I revert back to what I was personally told.

[JAFO]

If the crucial point of the discussion is whether the mags have to be properly stored in approved devices (regardless of their location), than it doesn't really matter which Division, right? It would apply to all of them. It is a bit confusing because I could see where you actually would have a competitive advantage in SS/Prod/L10 doing this on a medium course with close targets that only required one reload.

As an aside, while I realize that it's technically following the rules, to bump someone to Open for an empty barney mag in a front pocket would be asinine.

[want2race]

I totally agree with you on that. I as well have a problem with the front pocket topic.

This is how I would like it understood: If, during a course of fire, you USE the mag from the front pocket, open. If you barney with it before the buzzer, not open. If after ULSC, you place it back in the front pocket, not open. I know that it states your equipment must meet division requirements at all times. I read that to mean I can't move my holster or mag pouches in front of the hip bone at any time during the course of the match.

To me, the mags on the table are in the same state as if they were on my belt. Legal at the buzzer. What I do with them after the buzzer is up to me. That is, as long as I don't put them in my front pocket.

[sperman]

If you guys want to bring that up (again) how about doing it in the thread already created on that topic.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126988

[sperman]

Here's my interpretation of Amidon's reply:

Mags in division compliant mag pouch = legal.

Mags on table / barrel per WSB = legal.

Mags in hand are being used. They are not stowed, so they are not required to meet the division location requirements. = legal.

The only time a SS / Prod guy would get themselves in trouble is if they were to stow the mag (stow = carry it on their body, not in their hand) forward of their hip bone. Mouths and armpits are a grey area.

[Thomas H]

If you started with all mags in your pouches, then decided to pull two of them and hold them between your fingers as you ran the course, I'd assume by the opinion above that this would be legal. Not advantageous, but freestyle and legal. If you can do that, you should be able to pick them up from a table/barrel (if that's the WSB ammo starting position) and run with them. In both cases, the mags were legally placed, either per the WSB or Division rules, prior to the start signal.

This is precisely it. There really are two separate topics going on here---one has to do with magazines starting in a legal place, and the other has to do with where magazines may be stored on your person.

I am having trouble with picking up a bunch of mags from a table and running with them being OK in SS and Production, but placing an empty stripper mag in a front pocket moves you to open. Somewhere along the line that doesn't seem to make sense to me, and then I revert back to what I was personally told.

And here it is---the "front pocket" is against certain division requirements under any circumstances during the course of fire. Picking magazines up in your hands from a legal start position is perfectly fine. (Including moving and/or shooting with extra magazines in your hands.)

If the crucial point of the discussion is whether the mags have to be properly stored in approved devices (regardless of their location), than it doesn't really matter which Division, right? It would apply to all of them. It is a bit confusing because I could see where you actually would have a competitive advantage in SS/Prod/L10 doing this on a medium course with close targets that only required one reload.

I'm not sure this is necessarily true---one would assume that since the GMs know about this possibility (after all, we've seen them on occasion shoot while holding a magazine in one hand) if it was actually a competitive advantage, they would be doing it all the time on sections of courses with short targets. And yet, they aren't.

I know that I can be almost as accurate and almost as fast on relatively near targets shooting two-handed while holding a magazine. In certain cases (for example, when I _don't_ have the mags on my belt, and would have to pick them up from barrels) that decrease is worth it if the targets are close, compared to having to take the time to stow an additional mag on my belt before I could start shooting. That being said, most of the time the course of fire is such that it just isn't worth it.

This is separate from whether or not it is legal, by the way. It is always legal. (Hm. I should have put this part at the bottom of my post, to keep it separate. Ah well.)

To me, the mags on the table are in the same state as if they were on my belt. Legal at the buzzer. What I do with them after the buzzer is up to me.

....as long as you are either holding them in your hands, or have stored them in approved retention devices. Or, if I recall correctly, you can actually fling them downrange to where you want them to be, and pick them up later in the course of fire.

I have no idea on the "in the mouth" or "in the armpit" methods of carry.

I've cut out almost all of the parts regarding the Great Front Pocket Barney Debate, because whether we like it or not, those are the rules.

[Thomas H]

Here's my interpretation of Amidon's reply:

Mags in division compliant mag pouch = legal.

Mags on table / barrel per WSB = legal.

Mags in hand are being used. They are not stowed, so they are not required to meet the division location requirements. = legal.

The only time a SS / Prod guy would get themselves in trouble is if they were to stow the mag (stow = carry it on their body, not in their hand) forward of their hip bone. Mouths and armpits are a grey area.

Oh sure, I take the time to blather on and on, and you just succinctly make an excellent summary. [sigh]

[mhs]

If the crucial point of the discussion is whether the mags have to be properly stored in approved devices (regardless of their location), than it doesn't really matter which Division, right? It would apply to all of them. It is a bit confusing because I could see where you actually would have a competitive advantage in SS/Prod/L10 doing this on a medium course with close targets that only required one reload.

As an aside, while I realize that it's technically following the rules, to bump someone to Open for an empty barney mag in a front pocket would be asinine.

How should an RO decide which rules to follow? How would he know that the next RO would ignore the same rules he chooses to?

[want2race]

If you guys want to bring that up (again) how about doing it in the thread already created on that topic.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126988

Yep, I knew my post was starting to drift into that other topic. Sorry.

Sounds like we've sorted this one out for now.

[JAFO]

If the crucial point of the discussion is whether the mags have to be properly stored in approved devices (regardless of their location), than it doesn't really matter which Division, right? It would apply to all of them. It is a bit confusing because I could see where you actually would have a competitive advantage in SS/Prod/L10 doing this on a medium course with close targets that only required one reload.

As an aside, while I realize that it's technically following the rules, to bump someone to Open for an empty barney mag in a front pocket would be asinine.

How should an RO decide which rules to follow? How would he know that the next RO would ignore the same rules he chooses to?

Not to further drift this thread, but I'm not saying pick and choose rules. I think we need to adhere to them to the best of our abilities all the time. It's just that I see an empty mag as akin to empty brass. If you scrounge some brass and put it in your front pocket as a SS/Prod shooter, I don't consider that ammunition forward of the hip bone.

Edited April 29, 2011 by JAFO