Single Stack + table starts

[Dwight Springthorpe]

Just to add a little more fun...

Consider a COF where you go prone and place extra mags or moon clips (for those wheelie guns) on the ground as you to get down to shoot. They are no longer in retention devices, 5.2.4 has been violated. The penalty is shooting for fun, not open and not a procedural.

Am I seeing this correctly???

Edited April 26, 2011 by Dwight Springthorpe

[JAFO]

Just to add a little more fun...

Consider a COF where you go prone and place extra mags or moon clips (for those wheelie guns) on the ground as you to get down to shoot. They are no longer in retention devices, 5.2.4 has been violated. The penalty is shooting for fun, not open and not a procedural.

Am I seeing this correctly???

I'd say you are fine there due to 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

[Gary Stevens]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[Dwight Springthorpe]

Good point

Thanks!

Just to add a little more fun...

Consider a COF where you go prone and place extra mags or moon clips (for those wheelie guns) on the ground as you to get down to shoot. They are no longer in retention devices, 5.2.4 has been violated. The penalty is shooting for fun, not open and not a procedural.

Am I seeing this correctly???

I'd say you are fine there due to 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

[Singlestack]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

[Gary Stevens]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

That is one example that I had considered, and unless over ruled by NROI, I consider that to be within the rules.

Gary

[Singlestack]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

That is one example that I had considered, and unless over ruled by NROI, I consider that to be within the rules.

Gary

OK. Now we are getting somewhere and I agree with you.

How then is that different from carrying a mag away from a table in the hand and shooting strong hand only?

[Gary Stevens]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

That is one example that I had considered, and unless over ruled by NROI, I consider that to be within the rules.

Gary

OK. Now we are getting somewhere and I agree with you.

How then is that different from carrying a mag away from a table in the hand and shooting strong hand only?

OK this is my opinion only so take it for what it is worth. Table start, mags on the table. If I understand your scenario you have a fully loaded gun, and a spare magazine that you have picked up off of the table (start position). You take your spare mag in your hand and begin shooting targets strong hand only. If that is the scenario, you are in violation because you left the start position with a spare mag not stowed behind the hip bone. It never was legally stowed, so it is illegal as soon as you leave the start position, IMO. Of course this only applies to SS and Production.

Back to you.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[Singlestack]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

That is one example that I had considered, and unless over ruled by NROI, I consider that to be within the rules.

Gary

OK. Now we are getting somewhere and I agree with you.

How then is that different from carrying a mag away from a table in the hand and shooting strong hand only?

OK this is my opinion only so take it for what it is worth. Table start, mags on the table. If I understand your scenario you have a fully loaded gun, and a spare magazine that you have picked up off of the table (start position). You take your spare mag in your hand and begin shooting targets strong hand only. If that is the scenario, you are in violation because you left the start position with a spare mag not stowed behind the hip bone. It never was legally stowed, so it is illegal as soon as you leave the start position, IMO. Of course this only applies to SS and Production.

Back to you.

And thats where I get lost. I'm gonna have to noodle that a bit.

[steel1212]

OOOh OOOOH I know I know!!

[Singlestack]

I get it.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

To me, that also says that every Division has the same requirement. What would happen to a Open Division shooter that carried a mag away from the table in hand?

[Nik Habicht]

I'll leave it to NROI to decide if a hand is a storage device

I will go this far though and say that I would take it into consideration if you pulled the mag from a legal position for single stack and production and then used it in a manner that might be questionable.

How does one use a mag in a questionable manner?

Lets say I plan a mag change after an array. As I'm leaving the array I grab a mag with my weak hand and then decide I had a miss on a target in the array I'm leaving. I've already got a mag in my weak hand so I turn back and shoot the target strong hand only with the mag in my weak hand before I drop the mag in the gun.

Is that using a mag in a questionable manner?

That is one example that I had considered, and unless over ruled by NROI, I consider that to be within the rules.

Gary

OK. Now we are getting somewhere and I agree with you.

How then is that different from carrying a mag away from a table in the hand and shooting strong hand only?

OK this is my opinion only so take it for what it is worth. Table start, mags on the table. If I understand your scenario you have a fully loaded gun, and a spare magazine that you have picked up off of the table (start position). You take your spare mag in your hand and begin shooting targets strong hand only. If that is the scenario, you are in violation because you left the start position with a spare mag not stowed behind the hip bone. It never was legally stowed, so it is illegal as soon as you leave the start position, IMO. Of course this only applies to SS and Production.

Back to you.

So that would really depend on hand position, right Gary? A shooter could have a hand far enough back, to comply with division criteria......

In which case, swinging the hand back past the hipbone would put the shooter in compliance......

I'm not sure that I agree with your call on the hand. I do believe that if a competitor, on a table start, chooses to load magazines into pockets or pouches that those need to comply with division criteria. I don't believe that the competitor needs to remain static at the start position, until they have stowed all their mags, and I wouldn't call a violation of division rules for a magazine held in the hand after the start signal.

[sperman]

I get it.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

To me, that also says that every Division has the same requirement. What would happen to a Open Division shooter that carried a mag away from the table in hand?

I still don't get it. 5.2.4 includes "unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure." If the WSB says all mags must be on table, does it not make them compliant at that point? If it's legal for the mags to be on the table, aren't they legally "stowed" per the WSB at that point? If you are going to stick them in a pocket or on the belt after you leave the table, I agree that they must be division compliant, but I don't see the problem with carrying them. I'm not NROI, and I'll call it the way they tell me to, but IMO if the competitor wants to shoot while holding 3 mags in his hands, more power to him.

[bofe954]

OK this is my opinion only so take it for what it is worth. Table start, mags on the table. If I understand your scenario you have a fully loaded gun, and a spare magazine that you have picked up off of the table (start position). You take your spare mag in your hand and begin shooting targets strong hand only. If that is the scenario, you are in violation because you left the start position with a spare mag not stowed behind the hip bone. It never was legally stowed, so it is illegal as soon as you leave the start position, IMO. Of course this only applies to SS and Production.

So what if there was a start position, and then a long run to the first array. Shooter picks up gun, grabs spare mag and runs with it for several steps, then stuffs it in their pouch to use later.

By your definition this would also be illegal?

[Nik Habicht]

OK this is my opinion only so take it for what it is worth. Table start, mags on the table. If I understand your scenario you have a fully loaded gun, and a spare magazine that you have picked up off of the table (start position). You take your spare mag in your hand and begin shooting targets strong hand only. If that is the scenario, you are in violation because you left the start position with a spare mag not stowed behind the hip bone. It never was legally stowed, so it is illegal as soon as you leave the start position, IMO. Of course this only applies to SS and Production.

So what if there was a start position, and then a long run to the first array. Shooter picks up gun, grabs spare mag and runs with it for several steps, then stuffs it in their pouch to use later.

By your definition this would also be illegal?

I'm fine with the running and stowing on the way.....

....or the carrying mags in a hand for part of or the entire stage and shooting one-handed for a while....

....but the pocket or pouch, that would need to comply with the division rules.....

[mhs]

I still don't get it. 5.2.4 includes "unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure." If the WSB says all mags must be on table, does it not make them compliant at that point? If it's legal for the mags to be on the table, aren't they legally "stowed" per the WSB at that point? If you are going to stick them in a pocket or on the belt after you leave the table, I agree that they must be division compliant, but I don't see the problem with carrying them. I'm not NROI, and I'll call it the way they tell me to, but IMO if the competitor wants to shoot while holding 3 mags in his hands, more power to him.

You can't carry them in your hand, unless specifically allowed to do so in the WSB, because your hand is not a retention device attached to the belt and specifically designed for that purpose, nor is it an apparel pocket.

[sperman]

I still don't get it. 5.2.4 includes "unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure." If the WSB says all mags must be on table, does it not make them compliant at that point? If it's legal for the mags to be on the table, aren't they legally "stowed" per the WSB at that point? If you are going to stick them in a pocket or on the belt after you leave the table, I agree that they must be division compliant, but I don't see the problem with carrying them. I'm not NROI, and I'll call it the way they tell me to, but IMO if the competitor wants to shoot while holding 3 mags in his hands, more power to him.

You can't carry them in your hand, unless specifically allowed to do so in the WSB, because your hand is not a retention device attached to the belt and specifically designed for that purpose, nor is it an apparel pocket.

1. If you can't carry mags, putting it in the WSB doesn't make it legal.

2. What happens if I carry a mag? The only thing I can think of is a re-shoot. You can't DQ me. You can't bump me to open, because the rule you mention applies to all divisions, not just SS and Production.

[sperman]

I'm fine with the running and stowing on the way.....

....or the carrying mags in a hand for part of or the entire stage and shooting one-handed for a while....

....but the pocket or pouch, that would need to comply with the division rules.....

I agree with you. But does NROI?

[want2race]

The mags have to originate from an approved location, whether it be table as per WSB or mag pouch/pocket behind the hip. I think we all agree on this right?

That, to me, means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (unless stated in WSB for some reason).

Here's a scenario that has been (sort of) previously accepted: Instead of grabbing up three mags and storing them, you decide to "drop" them where you want them. By drop I mean that you THROW your mags to the locations you will want to reload them. It states in the rule book you may recover and use dropped mags. Is this ideal? To pick up dirty mags on the clock and attempt to load and shoot them? NO, absolutely not. Is it within the rules though?

I don't believe these mag tossing, mag carrying methods will yield a stage win.

IMHO, once the buzzer goes off the mags on the table are fair game. Grab em up and shoot, grab em up and store them, throw them all over the place. Don't care. If the WSB states that all mags are on the table that supersedes "stored in mag pouches". It will be interesting to see if this topic is revisted by NROI.

[mhs]

1. If you can't carry mags, putting it in the WSB doesn't make it legal.

From 5.2.4: "unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure"

2. What happens if I carry a mag? The only thing I can think of is a re-shoot. You can't DQ me. You can't bump me to open, because the rule you mention applies to all divisions, not just SS and Production.

Beats me.

[Singlestack]

Seems to me like you guys have reached the point where I am at.

[sperman]

That, to me, means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (unless stated in WSB for some reason).

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

[want2race]

That, to me, means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (unless stated in WSB for some reason).

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

Right, I knew that was in there. So to correct my quote:

That ....... means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (ever).

Which is cool. I don't think that's the point of this discussion.

There have been some good points in this thread. If the book states all mags must be stowed IAW (insert rule number).. and it does not specify division then in Limited and Open you still could not grab the mag off the table and run the course of fire with it in your weak hand. It was never stowed. Unless the table IS the approved storage location IAW WSB. Gary's point has been the table is the approved location and you can reload from the table till your hearts content, however you can NOT take a mag off the table and carry it with you to be reloaded at a later point in the course of fire.

Here's where the grey area comes in.

Iniating a reload, then re-shooting a target SHO with mag in weak hand VS. Grabbing a mag off table, shooting targets SHO with mag in weak hand. BOTH came from approved locations based on WSB. One is acceptable, the other is not. Why?

[Gary Stevens]

That, to me, means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (unless stated in WSB for some reason).

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

Right, I knew that was in there. So to correct my quote:

That ....... means you can't start a stage with a mag in your hand/teeth/behind ears (ever).

Which is cool. I don't think that's the point of this discussion.

There have been some good points in this thread. If the book states all mags must be stowed IAW (insert rule number).. and it does not specify division then in Limited and Open you still could not grab the mag off the table and run the course of fire with it in your weak hand. It was never stowed. Unless the table IS the approved storage location IAW WSB. Gary's point has been the table is the approved location and you can reload from the table till your hearts content, however you can NOT take a mag off the table and carry it with you to be reloaded at a later point in the course of fire.

Here's where the grey area comes in.

Iniating a reload, then re-shooting a target SHO with mag in weak hand VS. Grabbing a mag off table, shooting targets SHO with mag in weak hand. BOTH came from approved locations based on WSB. One is acceptable, the other is not. Why?

Having watched The Ten Commandments the other night, we are sort of like the folks at the foot of the Mount. We are waiting on Moses to come down and tell us what the real rules are. I have never seen John Amidon with white hair and a beard, but who knows.........

[MoNsTeR]

If 5.2.4 prohibits carrying a mag in your hand or mouth, then it needs to be changed. Yesterday.