mhs Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? Rule 5.2.4, when it says, "5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. 5.2.4 allows it after the start signal. I can't find a rule allowing it before the start signal, but I can't find one forbidding it either. May I humbly suggest you are looking at it incorrectly. You don't need a rule allowing for a "thing." Every "thing" is allowed unless it is prohibitted. Sometimes the prohibitted "thing" is very clearly identified, othertimes it is generally prohibitted, but the prohibitted "thing" is only prohibitted when we have a prohibition. There must be a rule prohibitting a "thing." A lot of "things" are allowed for in stage design and none of those "things" are specifically named in the rules. They are allowed because they are not prohibitted. Now that we understand that we don't need a rule allowing something, we look for the rule prohibitting it. There is a rule prohibitting the placement of ammo on the table (since the rule requires ammo on the belt or in apparel submit to additional rules) BUT there is also an exception to that rule: "...unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure..." This exception, the words, "during the course of fire" can not be read seperate from "after the start signal." They go together, and together they mean that after the start signal spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose unless stipulated otherwise in thh stage procedure. This means it is not a violation of rule 5.2.4 to have the shooter place the ammunition on the table if it is stipulated in the stage procedure that the ammunition be on the table. I don't think I'm looking at it incorrectly. I can't find a rule about it one way or the other, as I posted. I haven't posted that I don't think it is allowed; in fact I do think it is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? Rule 5.2.4, when it says, "5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. 5.2.4 allows it after the start signal. I can't find a rule allowing it before the start signal, but I can't find one forbidding it either. May I humbly suggest you are looking at it incorrectly. You don't need a rule allowing for a "thing." Every "thing" is allowed unless it is prohibitted. Sometimes the prohibitted "thing" is very clearly identified, othertimes it is generally prohibitted, but the prohibitted "thing" is only prohibitted when we have a prohibition. There must be a rule prohibitting a "thing." A lot of "things" are allowed for in stage design and none of those "things" are specifically named in the rules. They are allowed because they are not prohibitted. Now that we understand that we don't need a rule allowing something, we look for the rule prohibitting it. There is a rule prohibitting the placement of ammo on the table (since the rule requires ammo on the belt or in apparel submit to additional rules) BUT there is also an exception to that rule: "...unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure..." This exception, the words, "during the course of fire" can not be read seperate from "after the start signal." They go together, and together they mean that after the start signal spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose unless stipulated otherwise in thh stage procedure. This means it is not a violation of rule 5.2.4 to have the shooter place the ammunition on the table if it is stipulated in the stage procedure that the ammunition be on the table. I don't think I'm looking at it incorrectly. I can't find a rule about it one way or the other, as I posted. I haven't posted that I don't think it is allowed; in fact I do think it is allowed. ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 ok Now I want a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 A mag in my hand is not stored. It is in my hand. I'm using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What if you have 3 mags in your hand? Are you using them, or are they "spares"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What if you have 3 mags in your hand? Are you using them, or are they "spares"? I dunno. They arn't stored.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Moved to open for what? It sounds like a legal way to get to 11 rounds in the gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? Yes. The first shooting position was over 10 yards away. He grabbed the equipment as he left the start position, and was easily 5 or 6 steps away before he seated the second mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Appendix D #9 says no more than 10 rounds in a magazine at the start. So as long as he used two magazines and still only shoots a max of 11 rounds before he hits slide lock I see no reason to move him to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary And that would involve the storage of said pesky spare mags, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 WSB stated ammo on table, the rule book lists that as a specific exception to "storage device". I'm still curios as to why you can't shoot a stage SHO while holding a mag. It came off the table. The next question is this only an issue for SS and Prod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The next question is this only an issue for SS and Prod? yes, the other divisions it doesn't matter where your ammo is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Good, then I've only done it in allowable divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 WSB stated ammo on table, the rule book lists that as a specific exception to "storage device". I'm still curios as to why you can't shoot a stage SHO while holding a mag. It came off the table. The next question is this only an issue for SS and Prod? FWIW I asked a pretty similar question of Amidon at the 2009 Nationals, as I wanted to know about a magnet in Production division being placed behind the hip line, but the mag when stuck on it being forward of the hip line WRT table starts. I asked specifically about SS guys holding mags in their hand or mouth being legal. As I recall (and I was listening intently) he said having the mag in the mouth or hand WAS LEGAL because it was not a "device" but on a magnet was illegal for Production or SS because the magnet was a "device." "Device" being the key word as I recall. I didn't think to ask about pockets. Out of curiosity. Prior to the last issue of Front Sight magazine was this ever an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 We had a guy go open at a CLUB match because of the front pocket. Best I can tell that's when I started to see these posts. Badchild, that type of ruling actually makes sense. If the course is free style and you chose to shoot it with one hand while holding a mag in the other hand, your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary And that would involve the storage of said pesky spare mags, right? Correct on the pesky mags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary And that would involve the storage of said pesky spare mags, right? Correct on the pesky mags Nope! You ain't gettin off that easy. If I'm understanding this correctly, then a hand can be considered a storage device. If that is so, then this would apply to ALL Divisions. Every Division has the same requirement that mags be stored in a storage device attached to the belt. Not just SS and Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary And that would involve the storage of said pesky spare mags, right? Correct on the pesky mags Nope! You ain't gettin off that easy. If I'm understanding this correctly, then a hand can be considered a storage device. If that is so, then this would apply to ALL Divisions. Every Division has the same requirement that mags be stored in a storage device attached to the belt. Not just SS and Production. I didn't say anything about a hand being a storage device. I was speaking of loading and reloading to your hearts content from the start position. When you "leave" the start position the pesky mags have to be stored in an acceptable manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 If I understand correctly: the only thing unacceptable about having a mag in your hand, is that it isn't behind your hip bone, which only applies to SS and Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I saw this one at a match a few weeks ago: The start position was for the unloaded gun and all ammo to be on the table. The first array was 8 shots. The competitor put 4 mags on his belt and then grabbed his gun and 2 mags. He inserted the first mag, put a round in the chamber, dropped the first mag and put the second mag in the gun. Should he be moved to open? Had he left the start position when he performed all of this? What difference would that make? He did not "store" the mag in his hand. Are you saying a hand is a storage device? Well on a table start, mags on table, you can load from the table to your hearts content. You could load and shoot, load, run to another shooting position and shoot, run back to the table and reload, then repeat as necessary. Obviously this is probably not what most of us would do normally. One other thing you could do is pick up one mag, assuming it was an unloaded gun start, load the gun, drop that mag, and immediately from the table load another magazine. All of this would be from the start position and not an issue. The issue, as I understand it, is what you do with those pesky spare mags after you leave the start position. Gary And that would involve the storage of said pesky spare mags, right? Correct on the pesky mags Nope! You ain't gettin off that easy. If I'm understanding this correctly, then a hand can be considered a storage device. If that is so, then this would apply to ALL Divisions. Every Division has the same requirement that mags be stored in a storage device attached to the belt. Not just SS and Production. I didn't say anything about a hand being a storage device. I was speaking of loading and reloading to your hearts content from the start position. When you "leave" the start position the pesky mags have to be stored in an acceptable manner So, a mag in the hand is stored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 If I understand correctly: the only thing unacceptable about having a mag in your hand, is that it isn't behind your hip bone, which only applies to SS and Production. That would mean it is stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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